At This Rate, Don't Be Surprised If You See Steam Soon

[Dragonlord]

EDIT: Besides you little smart-ass. What do "you" call as "substantial"? This kind of trolling I've seen a lot. People go around claiming all the time "this is not 'substantial'" or "this is not valid proof" so they can drag on the trolling.

[GNU/Blind]

EDIT: Besides you little smart-ass. What do "you" call as "substantial"? This kind of trolling I've seen a lot. People go around claiming all the time "this is not 'substantial'" or "this is not valid proof" so they can drag on the trolling.

Hey buddy, I don't call you names. Why resort to calling me a fanboy and a troll? No need for that, all I'm saying is that the six or seven games I own on steam, none of them are "caged". Here is a list of games and DRM they use on Steam. Here is Valves co-founder talking about DRM and how its bad for business.

[Svartalf]

Sure, using the colloquial definition of emulation - from a technical standpoint these are very different things.

Define "technical" standpoint. Dragonlord's telling you things as they are. Not quibbling about semantics (I mention this because the moment you used the term "colloquial" to try to dodge the description Dragonlord pinned on things, you were doing that...).

The myth item from WINE is not wholly correct. If it's an abstraction layer like they're claiming, it wouldn't need a special program loader (the wine app and the wineserver app...)- it would just simply RUN on Linux directly. If it needs any sort of virtualization, etc. it's still using bits and pieces of emulation in the mix- it's just not emulating hardware like the CPU because it doesn't need to like traditional emulators use- which is why they're trying to avoid having it called an "emulator", not because it's not one. It is, it's just more akin to a Virtual Machine environment than the console, etc. emulators.

[Svartalf]

Hey buddy, I don't call you names. Why resort to calling me a fanboy and a troll? No need for that, all I'm saying is that the six or seven games I own on steam, none of them are "caged". Here is a list of games and DRM they use on Steam. Here is Valves co-founder talking about DRM and how its bad for business.

Unfortunately, Gabe's talking out both sides of his mouth. Their titles still use DRM- just a better implemented one that THEY did and they're not calling it DRM.

Can you play the game without an internet connection? Not always? Is the title multiplayer? No? Then you're talking about a form of DRM, no matter what the publisher/developer is calling it.

[Yfrwlf]

Wine is BAD for Linux because it strengthens Windows as the OS. It's an emulator and that's the problem. It's not "native" application and therefore prone to all sorts of problems. Wine is NOT a solution for promoting Linux as a gaming system, it's the exact opposite.

That it won't help Linux is one theory and I disagree with it. Linux (and others) are the free OSes. If the free OSes become capable of running programs the non-free OSes can run, it makes those non-free OSes less relevant. Linux needs to one up and surpass features of other operating systems, and by running more of the programs the others run, that is being accomplished. Any programs which are made compatible with Linux and other free OSes when they would have normally only been made for the non-free OSes is a win, and any additional programs which users can run on free OSes will allow greater free OS adoption, which means Wine programs. If one or some developers do create a program for the Windows API and make sure Wine can run it, like how they do now with many games for Mac like Spore for example, as a method of targeting all platforms, so be it, because especially if you bundle Wine WITH the program, it will always be able to run that program. After Linux gets bigger because of the added feature of being able to run some Windows games, that will help developers target Linux APIs directly instead, and they will still want to support true cross-platform APIs and efforts regardless, as targeting the Windows API isn't the best choice for many reasons still.

Quite simply, as long as Microsoft tries to squeeze developers who try to target the Windows APIs, that's reason enough to target APIs which have cross-platform in mind from the getgo, like OpenGL. This is my same argument against Mono, too, as Mono is a copy of .NET and it is controlled by a corporation with a very strong reputation for backstabbing essentially by dangling things which are supposedly open standards in front of everyone with hidden strings attached. So while .NET CAN be used to some degree to target Windows and Linux (and Mac?), it's probably not an ideal choice with cross-platform compatibility and agnosticism in mind. Just the fact you have to test .NET programs on both Windows and Linux to make sure they're compatible is enough of a warning flag to me, .NET just has too many hooks into proprietary Windows crap AFAIK, but I'm no expert. Regardless, the ability to run .NET programs on Linux is also a one-up on Windows, just so long Microsoft doesn't pull an ace out of it's hat with some attached strings, one of which is .NET being patented. Someone nuke the USPTO please, thanks.

And it's not an emulator by definition of emulator as others have said, it uses libraries, it's like you installed /Windows/System32 onto your system basically. You can basically compare Wine with OpenGL, it's an implementation of an API that does not require CPU translation. That's my understanding any way.

[Straximus]

By the way, the last paragraph of yours is a total contradiction. If you consider them "being ok in your book" for that crap then you are brain-sick, sorry.

I'd like to add that I'm pretty sick of seeing you throw pejoratives out at people, especially when you can't even be bothered to understand what you just read before slinging them out. He was clearly contrasting Valve and Ubisoft's protection measures.

Clearly, you have a hate-on for Steam. That's fine. No one *likes* DRM. But your typical choice for a modern AAA title goes something like this:
1- Disc Check
2- DRM
3- Pirate

Number 3 should be crossed off right out of the gate for obvious reasons.

Some of us prefer #1, and implementations of #2 vary wildly. Both are a hassle, but they can both be circumvented in all their forms. At that point, everyone just chooses the protection measure they see as the least hassle out of the box. Throw in Steam's weekend deals and it's social gaming infrastructure on top of their very permissive DRM, and you've got one hell of a winner in my book. When DRM-free digital delivery is an option, I take it every time. But other than StarDock, the classics on GoG, and some Indie titles, no one is going that route.

Some people see it differently, and prefer to exercise other options. That's fine. It's nothing to recommend a mental health professional over. We all mostly just want to play some games and not be hassled.

[GNU/Blind]

Unfortunately, Gabe's talking out both sides of his mouth. Their titles still use DRM- just a better implemented one that THEY did and they're not calling it DRM.

Can you play the game without an internet connection? Not always? Is the title multiplayer? No? Then you're talking about a form of DRM, no matter what the publisher/developer is calling it.

I have had my steam client in offline mode for weeks now, yet I can still play any of the games I own. I mainly play Vegas 2, online mostly and it runs happily with out Steam being in online mode. The only games I know of that require steam to be online to play online is Valves titles and serious sam HD. Not that there aren't more, I just haven't bought enough to find out. It is a pretty safe guess that if a game is primarily released on steam and has multiplayer capabilities, the multiplayer side will require steam to be in online mode. Steams DRM is great, perfect.

[nanonyme]

And it's not an emulator by definition of emulator as others have said, it uses libraries, it's like you installed /Windows/System32 onto your system basically. You can basically compare Wine with OpenGL, it's an implementation of an API that does not require CPU translation. That's my understanding any way.

Some overhead of function calls is probably to be expected though, depending on how the compiler decides to optimize. I suppose if you were really nuts, could tweak all OpenGL functions to be inlined into Wine DX... (seriously, don't do this; it makes your Wine dependent on your libGL meaning you can't switch between open and closed drivers)

[Yfrwlf]

We all mostly just want to play some games and not be hassled.

I apparently didn't understand the goal of that short list, but pirating is the only option you listed which achieves that for many who like to be in complete control of software, but you mentioned DRM-free too.

Any way, it's this simple: companies, come up with a way to be nice to others and also make money. How?

1. In places where there are copyright laws, and you want to "use" them even though I personally disagree with any of it, you should be offering assurances via EULA or license or whatever notification or contract you prefer that stipulate you will remove the DRM after a set time, or open source the software after a set time, whatever it takes to assure your restrictions will not be a problem for those who invest in your software.
2. Please someone, since it's not going to be me (don't have the legal knowledge), like Steam or any other mass organization of commercial software developers, push bounty systems in combination with point (1). Get sign ups and commitments to donate/pay first as you release your ideas and updates on your development progress or whatnot, release a demo when you're close to finishing, and then take the payments and release the software as open source or whatnot.

I very much believe that all software companies must move towards option 2 in the long run, as DRM is not an option, and sharing information will always be the norm, so if you're going to share an experience which takes a lot of effort, and you want to try the paid development route, some kind of bounty system is your only option, and that means you're going to need a good method of establishing trust while ensuring financial support at the same time. That is the future of software development in my opinion, aside from open source development which already heavily relies on bounty systems (aka paid development support) along with non-development support.

[Straximus]

I apparently didn't understand the goal of that short list, but pirating is the only option you listed which achieves that for many who like to be in complete control of software, but you mentioned DRM-free too.

As I stated those are the "typical choice(s) for a modern AAA title(s)". I mentioned DRM-free in a different context - the only context it currently exists: older titles and indie titles.

I don't disagree with your ideas. But I'm also not going to avoid or pirate blockbuster titles until they are adopted.