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Thread: Apple Rolls Out WebKit2, But No Linux Love Yet

  1. #51
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    Default You have no idea what you are talking about!

    Quote Originally Posted by perpetualrabbit View Post
    No, indeed it cannot be said that Apple is not staying within the bounds of the GPL or BSD licenses of software that they used as much of a base for OS X.
    If they aren't, why don't you do something useful and get the Free software foundation to chase after them?
    But they only give back what they absolutely must, not one iota more.
    Now that is absolute garbage. Get off your dead ass and look around at what Apple does support, in some case extensively.
    They do hurt open source software by overzealously defending their software patents, in my opinion. For instance the font hinting patents they have hinder the linux font engine to present good looking fonts, although I forgot what the issue exactly was.
    Sorry but that is exactly what patents are for. They give you exclusive use of your inventions. It is an entirely different argument about the value of software patents but Apple really has little choice here if they want to compete commercially.
    Something with cubic curves in fonts and also some patent having to do with font hinting. Also their legal steps against HTC are about trivial (non-)inventions that should not have be possible to patent in the first place. That lawsuit is seen by many as directed against google's android. Therefore it is a threat to linux and open source in general.
    As to HTC I really think Apple has no choice here. Google basically had a spy on the board which directly impacted the design of Android, why do you think Steve is so damn hot abotu this subject?

    So in short I think Apple is a bad open source 'citizen'. They take a lot, give little back, and have the bad form to not share their patents with the open source community they take so much code and talent from, and who ported so much software rooted in linux to OS X. Instead they sue (HTC) or threatened to sue (font issues).
    First you are wrong, dreadfully wrong about Apple as an open source citizen they are involved in many projects some of which wouldn't be where they are today without Apples interest.

    As to Apple patents they really have no choice here, they have to defend them or end up with nothing. Unfortunately you are a prime example of a person that doesn't understand the patent system.

    On the other hand, they do make very good software, not particularly fast or complete, but so very well integrated.
    Might that software be the result of technology that they developed or shepherd? You seem to see the gloss but not the underlying technology.

    I have been watching the whole linux development, from kernel to the desktop environments and most of the major software packages. It is all so disorganized and duplicated efforts. Only look to the situation with sound to understand what I mean.
    There is a clear advantage to having a person like Steve Jobs in charge. The anarchy in the linux world that is our strength is also our biggest weakness.
    The single biggest thing that drove me to a MBP is that churn that Linux has. YOu basically had to reinstall every six months or slow watch your system become unusable as various piece of software became unsupported on you system. Well that and the attraction of commercial software that just isn't right on Linux.

    What is especially handy is that I don't end up missing much on Mac OS/X as it is UNIX underneath. As such it will run anything I can get to build on it.

    Dave

  2. #52
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    Default Apple is hihgly justified in their handling of the Iphone SDK.

    Quote Originally Posted by smitty3268 View Post
    Wow. Just..... wow. Do you really believe the stuff you're spewing out right now? You mentioned apple used to pay you, is that actually still the case?
    They have never payed me yet I have to agree with him 100%. Frankly you are totally out of line here as you won't address what Apple has and is doing in the open source world.
    MS may try to keep people from copying their own products (yes, apple does this as well, and much more vigorously). But they have never once - please, try to give me an example here - declared that a company that has spent millions of dollars developing a product that they can't allow their users to run it on top of windows. Not once.
    You are attempting here to defend Adobe against Apples effort to harm them, after all the disinterest Adobe has shown the Linux world. Way to go man. Frankly I support Apple 100% in the quest to marginalize and hopefully reduce Adobe to ashes. Yes I hate flash that much and even more hate Adobe for promoting it while doing little development and stabilization of the product.

    I actually see this as Apple sticking up for the many users that have had to endure flash on the web for years now. You may not see it that way but Apple can have a far greater impact on Adobe than we as individuals can.

    Heck, for my taste MS is even a little too developer friendly - i think the platform would be better if they didn't put such a priority on maintaining binary compatibility with decades old code, but I can see why a 3rd party developer might like it.
    As to Apple being open to developers I'm not sure how some of the opinions being expressed here are even possible. Apples development tools are open source, you can build your own compiler chain right now using to different code bases, can't do that with MS at all. In the case of LLVM and associate tools, they are getting deployed in a number of projects outside of Apple. Apples contributions here are very significant and constantly dismissed with no good reason that I can see.

    Dave

  3. #53
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    Default Again why are we defending ADOBE here?

    Quote Originally Posted by smitty3268 View Post
    But at least they were up front about it. The difference is that Apple waited until after Adobe spent millions to get their product running on the iPhone, and only then took away the rug right at the last moment. The issue is the capriciousness and the lack of hard rules. The fact that you might be selling something on the iPhone right now, only to suddenly have it taken away because some app reviewer changes their mind. With MS, you always know where you stand.
    Lets face it Apple had to do something with ADOBE as they where doing more harm to the Mac platform than good. Yes this is a big club but sometimes you need a big club to drive home the fact that bad behavior won't be tolerated. Frankly I support Apple 100% here as they are doing what we as individuals couldn't accomplish, that is to get ADOBE to sit up and take notice that their product is crap.

    The unfortunate side effect from the carpet bombing approach, that Apple is taking, is that some good technologies do get side tracked here. To be honest I don't think ADOBE was Apples only target, I'm just happy that ADOBE is being publicly roasted here and that the mentality of the management staff is shining through. I do think Apple wants to make sure its developer base is filled with professional programmers rather than crap flashware producers and frankly I support them again.



    Dave

  4. #54
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post
    They have never payed me yet I have to agree with him 100%. Frankly you are totally out of line here as you won't address what Apple has and is doing in the open source world.
    Dude, stop drinking the Apple koolaid here. Go back and read my posts, not even once did I bring up the subject of open source or Apple's part in it. I was talking 100% about whether apple was friendly to developers, so stop trying to stick words in my mouth that I never said.

    You are attempting here to defend Adobe against Apples effort to harm them, after all the disinterest Adobe has shown the Linux world. Way to go man. Frankly I support Apple 100% in the quest to marginalize and hopefully reduce Adobe to ashes. Yes I hate flash that much and even more hate Adobe for promoting it while doing little development and stabilization of the product.
    Hey, if you hate Flash more than you hate Apple, I can't really hold that against you. Like I said, I hate Adobe too. I just think that the writing is already on the wall, and that flash is dying, soon to be dead. They aren't even important anymore - but Apple is dangerous, they're very powerful and becoming more so. So I'm frightened of Apple, and only disgusted by Adobe. Fear beats disgust, in this case.

    As to Apple being open to developers I'm not sure how some of the opinions being expressed here are even possible. Apples development tools are open source, you can build your own compiler chain right now using to different code bases, can't do that with MS at all.
    Please, as a developer myself, tell me why i should care about this at all. Who cares if I can recompile the compiler they use? What's not friendly is the way they treat developers, not their software or APIs. Which I'll admit, tends to be pretty good.

    In the case of LLVM and associate tools, they are getting deployed in a number of projects outside of Apple. Apples contributions here are very significant and constantly dismissed with no good reason that I can see.

    Dave
    Like i said, I never made this argument so stop acting like i did.

  5. #55
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post
    If they aren't, why don't you do something useful and get the Free software foundation to chase after them?

    Now that is absolute garbage. Get off your dead ass and look around at what Apple does support, in some case extensively.

    Sorry but that is exactly what patents are for. They give you exclusive use of your inventions. It is an entirely different argument about the value of software patents but Apple really has little choice here if they want to compete commercially.

    As to HTC I really think Apple has no choice here. Google basically had a spy on the board which directly impacted the design of Android, why do you think Steve is so damn hot abotu this subject?

    First you are wrong, dreadfully wrong about Apple as an open source citizen they are involved in many projects some of which wouldn't be where they are today without Apples interest.

    As to Apple patents they really have no choice here, they have to defend them or end up with nothing. Unfortunately you are a prime example of a person that doesn't understand the patent system.

    Might that software be the result of technology that they developed or shepherd? You seem to see the gloss but not the underlying technology.


    The single biggest thing that drove me to a MBP is that churn that Linux has. YOu basically had to reinstall every six months or slow watch your system become unusable as various piece of software became unsupported on you system. Well that and the attraction of commercial software that just isn't right on Linux.

    What is especially handy is that I don't end up missing much on Mac OS/X as it is UNIX underneath. As such it will run anything I can get to build on it.

    Dave

    I hate how phoronix removes the context, it makes it harder to reply in between quotes.

    @1 I said it _CANNOT_ be said Apple is _NOT_ staying within bounds of GPL/BSD. So they stay within bounds. Two negatives make one positive.

    @2 I looked at the open source pages at apple.com. I am not impressed. Sun, IBM, Intel contributed way more. Apple's open source additions first and foremost help Apple.

    @3 No, patents are NOT meant for trivial high school stuff like quadratic/cubic curves. They are not meant for math or applications of math at all. They are meant for real tangible objects like a new type of diesel motor. That Apple has a patent for their use in fonts, scaring Linux distro's in not using that tech is a travesty. Apple can and does compete with making fonts look good by designing good fonts.

    @4 A spy. That is just ridiculous. The man was on the Apple board officially. Also there is nothing in Android that was not already in some form or other in Linux distro's for years. It looks like a specialized linux desktop with java apps on top to me.
    Show me one thing that Apple put in the iPhone that is really a new invention and did not exist in some form already. Also how is it that you are on a first name base with mr. Jobs?

    @5 Well as a sysadmin I'm not happy then how they `rescued´ CUPS. Its configuration is a nightmare, apart from absolute basics, and Mac cups clients are not even compatible with cups classes. Maybe now with snow leopard they finally are, but I already had to give the mac their own separate printer, there were so many problems.
    Now there is a lot of open source software in OS X, so much that in fact it looks like a linux distro, with another kernel, display server and packaging system. But their own contributions are only a handful projects, and almost none are directly usable in Linux. Sun gave us openoffice, Java, opensolaris and lots of other stuff. IBM gave eclipse and numerous other softwares.
    As a linux user and an iPod owner, it is a nightmare to copy music to my iPod, because Apple keeps changing the format only to _NOT_ be compatible with linux. And windows has iTunes, so why is linux singled out exactly? That is not good open source citizenship in my opinion.

    @6 Exactly the other way around. I don't care a rats ass about their glossy, lickable exterior. I find it ugly and working on a mac, which I sometimes have to do, feels like being locked into an soft cell. What I admire about OS X is their application infrastructure: corevideo, coreaudio etc. Linux has a analogous thing for any of those part, but it is all unintegrated. And for every single part like coreaudio that Apple has, Linux has three or four competing projects. There needs to be a big get-together of Linux developers to design a single application framework for linux out of the best of the existing parts, and to fill in the missing links.

    @7 If you mess around with your system the whole time, that is what you get. But if you just set it up once and only install the updates, it will keep running for months at a time. I only ever have problems with compiz crapping out from time to time. But them I simply restart it: compiz --replace, problem solved. I also have a mac book pro, but I installed karmic on it. I really cannot stand OS X. Also the GNU versions of the unix tools are way better than the BSD ones you have in OS X. The commercial software on Linux I never missed. I don't photoshop, but since Apple now is at war with Adobe, I would not be surprised if it is finally ported to Linux. I would hate it, but it would be a logical act of war for Adobe against Apple. Apart from games, I'm not sure what commercial software you could possibly miss on Linux.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post
    Lets face it Apple had to do something with ADOBE as they where doing more harm to the Mac platform than good.
    Oh really?

    Just imagine where the "Mac platform" would be without Adobe. Taking away Photoshop, Illustrator and InDesign would mostly reduce OSX to an overpriced BSD with no real advantage over any given Linux distribution – apart maybe from the polished interface. Of course there are alternatives to Adobe's products – but using Aperture and Quark Xpress is not something you'd want to suggest to a group of graphic artists used to a (de facto industry-)standard osx+adobe-workflow. They tend to be quite sensitive creatures

    I'd really like to see what would happen to market shares if Adobe decided to release their Creative Suite 5 for Win and Linux only.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch View Post
    Oh really?

    Just imagine where the "Mac platform" would be without Adobe. Taking away Photoshop, Illustrator and InDesign would mostly reduce OSX to an overpriced BSD with no real advantage over any given Linux distribution – apart maybe from the polished interface. Of course there are alternatives to Adobe's products – but using Aperture and Quark Xpress is not something you'd want to suggest to a group of graphic artists used to a (de facto industry-)standard osx+adobe-workflow. They tend to be quite sensitive creatures

    I'd really like to see what would happen to market shares if Adobe decided to release their Creative Suite 5 for Win and Linux only.
    I wonder how much market there is for Photoshop and the rest for Linux. If they sell it through Canonical, Redhat and SuSE, it may well stop some people from buying a mac, or a new mac. It seems that professional color profiling tools for linux do exist, but they need an easier user interface. Printing support is good in linux. It would certainly be good for Linux but not so good for Apple.
    So if Adobe wants to strike back at Apple banning flash, it will consider it as a tactic. If they do it depends on the pros and cons.
    But I also wonder what problems Adobe has with their development process, considering that most of their code is still 32 bit, does not support cocoa, flash is so buggy, security problems in acrobat, and the list goes on. It paints a picture of a development department in decline to me. I have to wonder if they are actually ABLE to make a good linux version of photoshop (and the rest).

    I much rather see native tools like GIMP, gnash and pdf workflow improve on linux than adobes tools being ported.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by perpetualrabbit View Post
    I much rather see native tools like GIMP, gnash and pdf workflow improve on linux than adobes tools being ported.
    Of course, so would I.

    Also I'm not suggesting it would be a practical thing for Adobe to do. The choices which distribution(s) to support, which DE to integrate with or even how to distribute the software would be way to cumbersome. I'd just like to see how much of a boost Linux (and the various components the Creative Suite would depend on) would get from this. I can imagine it could be quite significant. And as I said I'd like to see where that leaves Apple. Unfortunately, such a thing is not going to happen any time soon.

    Plus i don't think Adobe even has to react to the ban of Flash on the iPad, that was just a dumb move by Apple. They sacrifice almost any functionality in favor of "user friendliness", but then they go and cripple web browsing. Just imagine Your Mother(TM) running into non-displayable Flash-content all the time. Kinda ruins the experience if you ask me ...

  9. #59
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    Not having flash actually saves the web browsing experience
    No slowdowns, no 100% cpu hogging ads. Or crashing plugins for that matter.

    And I'm a linux user, not mac :P

  10. #60
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    More then 1 years is passed from the initial article.
    Which is the actual situation about WebKit2 for the linux side?

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