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Thread: Quake Live Now Available To Linux Gamers

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackStar View Post
    However, you can get much larger benefits by improving your algorithms, writing hardware specific paths (e.g. different shaders for radeons and geforces) or just plain optimizing your level layout and assets.
    I never said something else. Nevertheless at some point you need raw power no matter how neat your design is and this is where things break. What you need is good design and number crunching code. You have to use the right thing at the right place.

    In fact, the lower-level you go, the harder your life becomes: bugs, memory leaks, unportable code, slower compile times, ABI issues (try exporting C++ code from a dll - nice, huh?). A higher level language will help you write more maintainable code with less bugs and less effort. You can then spend the time you saved optimizing the parts where it actually matters and that's why using a managed language can result in better performance.
    The key is design. If you write messy C code and blaming C for it then you do something wrong. Managed languages are not less error prone. They just remove memory related errors replacing them with higher level problems. But why arguing with somebody who thinks a managed language is the cure-all for everything instead of using the right tool at the right place...

  2. #82
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    if a might add some noob talk here.

    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.microsoft.com/express/product/default.aspx

    Visual C#
    A great combination of power and productivity for the Windows developer.

    Visual C# 2008 Express with SP1 is the ideal tool for productively building object-oriented applications for Windows on the .NET Framework.

    Visual C++
    Horsepower with a finer degree of control than other Express Editions.

    Visual C++ 2008 Express with SP1 provides a powerful and flexible development environment for creating native Windows and cool 2D and 3D games.
    on the 2005 edition they recommended both c++ and c# for games. Now seems its just c++.

    But I could be getting a totally different drift then what you guys are on. This is totally beyond me.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlord View Post
    The key is design. If you write messy C code and blaming C for it then you do something wrong. Managed languages are not less error prone.
    Sorry, but that's just delusional. Writing correct, safe C code is significantly more difficult than Ocaml or Python. Writing verifiable code is nigh impossible.

    They just remove memory related errors replacing them with higher level problems.
    I'll take higher level problems over memory related errors any day.

    Memory management is the single largest issue plaguing any sufficiently large program and anything that simplifies it will result in large gains in the long run. C doesn't really offer in the way of memory management. C++ is marginally better with smart pointers and other constructs that can be used to implement semi-automatic reference counting.

    C#, or any other language with a non-conservative GC, simplifies memory management by an order of magnitude, at the very least. In the common case, you can simply forget about it. For games, you might have to use pools or explicit stack allocations, but that's still simpler than juggling with reference counts.

    But why arguing with somebody who thinks a managed language is the cure-all for everything instead of using the right tool at the right place...
    Have you even read my posts? I've said more than once that you should use the right tool for the right job. Surprisingly enough (or not, depending on your background), this could mean using something other than C/C++ in parts of your engine.

    Unity3d (commercial engine for the Wii, iPhone, Windows, Mac), Second Life (cross-platform title) and several other games embed the Mono runtime directly. Most 3d engines nowadays ship with .Net bindings. The only way you can develop for the XBox is to use C#, unless you are a large, proven game studio. If managed languages were so unsuitable for games as you claim, why are they used to such an extent in actual, shipping games?

    Besides, you still haven't managed to list even a single concrete example of a hack you have performed in C/C++ but couldn't in C# - which kinda undermines your point.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackStar View Post
    Most 3d engines nowadays ship with .Net bindings.
    M$ and c# for 360. If you couldn't figure that one out your lost.

    BTW building a game using .net off an engine written in c++ is a whole new ball of wax.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by L33F3R View Post
    BTW building a game using .net off an engine written in c++ is a whole new ball of wax.
    Ear wax, bee wax, car wax, or candle wax?

  6. #86
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    the kind shrek used for his candles

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by L33F3R View Post
    M$ and c# for 360. If you couldn't figure that one out your lost.
    Please explain, you are not making any sense. What do Delta3d, Ogre3d, Irrlicht3d, CrystalSpace3d, Unity3d, Torque have to do with Microsoft (or the 360 for that matter)?

    BTW building a game using .net off an engine written in c++ is a whole new ball of wax.
    Speaking from experience, or just speculating? Because it is not any more difficult than building a game in Python or Lua using a C++ engine.

    Guess what language(s) Crysis is written in.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackStar View Post
    Please explain, you are not making any sense. What do Delta3d, Ogre3d, Irrlicht3d, CrystalSpace3d, Unity3d, Torque have to do with Microsoft (or the 360 for that matter)?
    nothing. If i wanted to specify Delta3d, Ogre3d, Irrlicht3d, CrystalSpace3d, Unity3d or Torque would have. I specified c# and the 360, Not the above. Both c# and xbox are Microsoft technologies. If you couldn't achieve that thread of thought im sorry. I think where you are confused is how i poorly organised my post, the quote was in direction of my second line. What i should have done was quote this 1 first.
    The only way you can develop for the XBox is to use C#, unless you are a large, proven game studio.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackStar View Post
    Guess what language(s) Crysis is written in.
    I know they use lua for NPC scripting. Correct me if im wrong tho.

  9. #89
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    I've been playing Quake Live on Ubuntu Jaunty for two days now, and all I can say is that until now, I had a lot of fun.

    While it may still be the good old quake 3 arena, the new envelope/package it comes in adds a great deal of motivation to play and explore the competitive richness of quake. A friends manager, stats, awards, and way more finally united in one shiny, perfectly designed place. Another sweet feature I like is how Quake Live evaluates your skill and tells you which server and opponents suit you best. Yep, I like it.
    Now as much as I love Nexuiz as a game and admire the work behind it, in my very humble opinion Quake Live is superior (if you ignore the fact that Nexuiz is free as in freedom).

    All in all, I think Quake Live is a cool and clever attempt to revive a legendary game and its unique competitive scene. Id software was so kind and offered Linux users another chance to show off their potential value in the gaming market. I think there's no better opportunity than with having some quick, clean, fun an hour or two on weekends for free.

    By the way, does anybody know what changes were made to id tech3 for QL? It does look quite better than projects using ioquake3. The new/improved art assets probably contribute a lot to it though...

  10. #90
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    So, is it better then to use a managed programming language instead of a plain one, nowadays?? Or does it depend on the situation? For games specifically. BTW, i cant seem to find other managed ones besides .net/c# and .mono.

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