VIA, ATI, HTPC, oh my!

[Jorophose]

Hello,

I've been "lurking", for lack of a better word, this site for a long time, and even popped into IRC for some advice a while back...

I'm looking to build a new computer soon enough, and have been waiting for the ideal point in time to buy (right now it's only waiting on better flgrx drivers, cheaper phenoms, and/or a price drop on the 780G). My budget is too low for Intel parts, especially since I'm not an overclocker. So it's likely AMD. And I've never liked nVidia's chipsets, finding they run way too hot for too little features.

So that left me with two choices really, the AMD 690V or 780G (and yeah I know they're worlds apart but they're the only Gigabytes with AMD chipsets). Reading Phoronix you get the impression ATI is great, it gets stellar performance, beats the crap out of nVidia, etc. But then I come to the forums and IRC and it's worlds apart, people are still constantly griping about flgrx (isn't it deprecated in favour of catalyst? or is catalyst just a control panel?)...

So really, how bad is Catalyst? If I were to build that 780G based computer, with Debian Lenny or maybe Ubuntu, how many problems would I run into? How bad would it really be? I'm sure the OSS ATI driver supports this already, so focus on ATI's. I know XvMC support is non-existant. I'm willing to accept it at this point because only VIA isn't useless on delivering for features. I wish ATI would at least let us use AVIVO or whatever as part of their blob... but like what's 3D and 2D perfomance like? Is there a way to fix the wine problems? And what does that entail, exactly? Like would it degrade something else or is it a case of apps butting heads over a config file? Is it better under windows?

I also want to try and put together an HTPC. My TV is just 720p/1080i though. Almost all of the TV viewing would be analog TV (although I have a cablebox, I don't know if I can receive digital channels without it, and I'd rather do without) and upscaling of DVD rips. And that's another thing. How do you do that? Are programs like MythTV able to use XvMC and I guess xv at the same time? Or does XvMC output at whatever resolution? I figure I'm going VIA and miniITX, maybe a C3 if only because it's just 88$ for a 800MHz fanless Eden (damn your retailers' boutique pricing VIA!) But the thing is, since I already have a cable box, it lets me flag shows, and I've got a pair of DVD players, so it's not terribly justifiable. Which is why I thought to myself, what about emulators? Would I be able to play SNES, GBA, and maybe even N64 games on a machine like that? Or games like Vice City? Would I need an extra video card? Because then I'd need to get a mATX board. That's even cheaper with a C7, but it's fanned and mATX (but yeah even then the cases might be bigger but they're cheaper).

But then that C7 just has two PCI slots, and it's just a C7. Do you think Nanos would be available that cheap? Or would you even be able to remove the C7 and upgrade it to a Nano? With the Nano I could do a lot more, like actual gaming. But then the price goes up (hell I've seen normal C7 boards go for 150$-250$+, which is ridiculous for some little piece of motherboard). Of course they're almost all got a PCIE slot, but still, now you're starting to dwaddle to the price range of my other PC... And what are you going to combine it with? The newer nVidia cards are mostly craptastic compared to the ATI ones...

So, hopefully somebody will get down here, and be able to help me straighten this tangle...

EDIT: Seems only the CN400 in that C3 board does XvMC at 720p... at least with openchrome... It doesn't look like the CN700 in the C7 board would do that... And if not, I really doubt it could do 720p h.264 in software, or 480p xvid/whatever-I-decide-on upscaled to 720p...

[mdraicch]

Hello,

I've been "lurking", for lack of a better word, this site for a long time, and even popped into IRC for some advice a while back...

I'm looking to build a new computer soon enough, and have been waiting for the ideal point in time to buy (right now it's only waiting on better flgrx drivers, cheaper phenoms, and/or a price drop on the 780G). My budget is too low for Intel parts, especially since I'm not an overclocker. So it's likely AMD. And I've never liked nVidia's chipsets, finding they run way too hot for too little features.

So that left me with two choices really, the AMD 690V or 780G (and yeah I know they're worlds apart but they're the only Gigabytes with AMD chipsets). Reading Phoronix you get the impression ATI is great, it gets stellar performance, beats the crap out of nVidia, etc. But then I come to the forums and IRC and it's worlds apart, people are still constantly griping about flgrx (isn't it deprecated in favour of catalyst? or is catalyst just a control panel?)...

So really, how bad is Catalyst? If I were to build that 780G based computer, with Debian Lenny or maybe Ubuntu, how many problems would I run into? How bad would it really be? I'm sure the OSS ATI driver supports this already, so focus on ATI's. I know XvMC support is non-existant. I'm willing to accept it at this point because only VIA isn't useless on delivering for features. I wish ATI would at least let us use AVIVO or whatever as part of their blob... but like what's 3D and 2D perfomance like? Is there a way to fix the wine problems? And what does that entail, exactly? Like would it degrade something else or is it a case of apps butting heads over a config file? Is it better under windows?

I also want to try and put together an HTPC. My TV is just 720p/1080i though. Almost all of the TV viewing would be analog TV (although I have a cablebox, I don't know if I can receive digital channels without it, and I'd rather do without) and upscaling of DVD rips. And that's another thing. How do you do that? Are programs like MythTV able to use XvMC and I guess xv at the same time? Or does XvMC output at whatever resolution? I figure I'm going VIA and miniITX, maybe a C3 if only because it's just 88$ for a 800MHz fanless Eden (damn your retailers' boutique pricing VIA!) But the thing is, since I already have a cable box, it lets me flag shows, and I've got a pair of DVD players, so it's not terribly justifiable. Which is why I thought to myself, what about emulators? Would I be able to play SNES, GBA, and maybe even N64 games on a machine like that? Or games like Vice City? Would I need an extra video card? Because then I'd need to get a mATX board. That's even cheaper with a C7, but it's fanned and mATX (but yeah even then the cases might be bigger but they're cheaper).

But then that C7 just has two PCI slots, and it's just a C7. Do you think Nanos would be available that cheap? Or would you even be able to remove the C7 and upgrade it to a Nano? With the Nano I could do a lot more, like actual gaming. But then the price goes up (hell I've seen normal C7 boards go for 150$-250$+, which is ridiculous for some little piece of motherboard). Of course they're almost all got a PCIE slot, but still, now you're starting to dwaddle to the price range of my other PC... And what are you going to combine it with? The newer nVidia cards are mostly craptastic compared to the ATI ones...

So, hopefully somebody will get down here, and be able to help me straighten this tangle...

EDIT: Seems only the CN400 in that C3 board does XvMC at 720p... at least with openchrome... It doesn't look like the CN700 in the C7 board would do that... And if not, I really doubt it could do 720p h.264 in software, or 480p xvid/whatever-I-decide-on upscaled to 720p...

Hi,

I'm running a gigabyte 780g motherboard, I bought it too soon and had no end of trouble loading it. At that time suse was on 10.3 and the only linux that supported it was ubuntu 7.1. All is OK now, all the major linux support this chipset.

The gigabyte motherboard I bought ga-ma78gm-s2h, was the first and is a disappointment to me, something screwey with video, the digital output sometimes worked and then not, had to stick with analog.

When the ati driver works, it is great, 2000+ on glxgears and 500+ on fgl_glxgears. When a new catalyst driver is released it is done with much fanfare, and positive talk. You have though assessed correctly that the reality of the release is quite different. There are many first users that complain bitterly at this and that and the fanfare gives way to much spitting and pulling out of hair. I personally wish to thank the first time users, without them I would have much trouble, quite often I don't load the new release because of these people.

So what do you do??

You should stick with amd/ati these people are our best chance of breaking free for the hold of closed source products. But to be safe do this:-

By a large hard disk or two:-

load two identical operating systems, one a test and one a production.
Turn off automatic updates.
Test everything on your test system before loading it to your production, this includes updates.
If your test system cracks it, then simply reload it.

Also, remember the forums will not always answer your questions, most of the time they don't know.

I know this dosen't answer all your questions, but what did I tell you about the forums??

regards
muzza

[Jorophose]

Hi,

I'm running a gigabyte 780g motherboard, I bought it too soon and had no end of trouble loading it. At that time suse was on 10.3 and the only linux that supported it was ubuntu 7.1. All is OK now, all the major linux support this chipset.

Is everything on the board working perfectly? (And thank you very much for replying!) Do you need flgrx/the ati drivers to getting it working? (mm I still haven't settled on a disto so that might not matter much)

The gigabyte motherboard I bought ga-ma78gm-s2h, was the first and is a disappointment to me, something screwey with video, the digital output sometimes worked and then not, had to stick with analog.

Is it still screwy? That's the normal board isn't it? (there's one with DDR3 sideport for the 3200) Has it been working better or worse? (I'm hoping this is just drivers being screwy; I've always found Gigabyte very good quality, but nobody is immune to bad eggs)

When the ati driver works, it is great, 2000+ on glxgears and 500+ on fgl_glxgears. When a new catalyst driver is released it is done with much fanfare, and positive talk. You have though assessed correctly that the reality of the release is quite different. There are many first users that complain bitterly at this and that and the fanfare gives way to much spitting and pulling out of hair. I personally wish to thank the first time users, without them I would have much trouble, quite often I don't load the new release because of these people.

So, should I just stick with the Catalyst that works, and upgrade when the people here who jump in say it's ready? Can you skip entire releases? (like go .6 to .8 without problems?)

So what do you do??

You should stick with amd/ati these people are our best chance of breaking free for the hold of closed source products. But to be safe do this:-

Yeah I don't think nVidia is going to ever budge, so it's AMD all the way (except maybe for some low-power VIA stuff, like the VB7002G that solves all my HTPC problems )

By a large hard disk or two:-

load two identical operating systems, one a test and one a production.
Turn off automatic updates.
Test everything on your test system before loading it to your production, this includes updates.
If your test system cracks it, then simply reload it.

I don't have the cash for a few hard drives, but what I was thinking of doing is getting a working system, burn it to DVD with mondorescue, and then adding whatever I need... Then if the system crashes, I reload from Mondo Rescue, and skip whatever lead to instability. Is this the sort of thing you meant?

It's always great to have a fallback.

Also, remember the forums will not always answer your questions, most of the time they don't know.

But you've shown me they're good enough

I know this dosen't answer all your questions, but what did I tell you about the forums??

You've done a great deal for me none the less!

You wouldn't happen to know how the discrete cards are doing, would you? I'm thinking of getting a HD4870 or 4850 when the prices drop... And will UVD, if it's ever coming, get released for the HD3200/3450 class video cards? (was thinking of getting the HD3450 for an HTPC, to get better gaming performance or maybe h.264 decoding if it'll ever happen)

[Nighthog]

Hi there. I have the Gigabyte ga-ma78gm-s2h 780G motherboard. Revision 1.0 whit F4 BIOS. (Phenom X4 9750 2.4Ghz, 4Gb memmory)

I just about a week ago installed Ubuntu 8.04 on it, the 64bit edition.

I can tell what problems I've had this far. No Linux operating software or rather no operating software core will work on this motherboard unless you set the motherboard to use less than 4Gb of memory.

There is a option in the advanced bios when you press ctrl+F1 that says. Over 4G memory mapping or something similar to that. if it's set to "over 4G".... Well good luck getting anything but windows to work whit 4G or more memory. There is a bad bug in the motherboard BIOS whit memory mapping and it screws up much stuff in the Linux/Unix etc place. Even memtest will screw up and not work... Set it to "Below 4G". I could not install Ubuntu or run even the live-cd before I set that option to "below 4G". There is a new BIOS F5 for the motherboard but I can't install it yet because I have no usb-drive or floppy connected to it so I can install the F5 BIOS so I don't know if the bug is fixed yet.

Well after that I installed Ubuntu and stuff works now but I can only have 3.5Gb memmory and not use my full 4Gb.
I installed 8.7 drivers and they work ok. You have all kind of problems around but I've decently satisfied whit it. Works somewhat stable, not entirely though. Gotten 2 cases where the desktop just dissapeard and I got a terminal that was totally empty and only just a prompt blinking and you could type whatever you wanted but nothing would happen... After reboot didn't find any error messages or whatnot. I don't really yet know where the logs are so I might have taken a look at wrong logs but didn't find any info there that something might have gone wrong.

You have video tearing, vsync problems. Compiz works fine though (maybe some vsync problems there but works nice and fine otherwise)
Video playback whit compiz is a bit off a hassle to get to work. Well I've managed to get non-blinking video in full-screen atleast.
I've been mostly trying to get good video playback this full week and not done much else. Haven't tried any 3D stuff except glxgears and compiz...

[mdraicch]

Is everything on the board working perfectly? (And thank you very much for replying!) Do you need flgrx/the ati drivers to getting it working? (mm I still haven't settled on a disto so that might not matter much)


I was a SUSE person, because initially I found that they had the best working programs. Also, 10.3 was an improvement on 10.2 so I expected big things from 11. I like doing stuff with video and sound, I don't really want to be a techo, I just want applications that work. SUSE made me work hard to install and compile and also to reverse the blocks that they put into DVD playback and encode software. Each program that I tried failed for one reason or another and eventually I capitulated and loaded UBUNTU. So much easier than SUSE, it leads you when ever it can and tells you how to fix a problem. Also it is easy to upgrade applications, for example I just upgraded DEVEDE and AVIDEMUX with no problems at all, just download the UBUNTU version and run DPKG.

Yes I did download the ati drivers from ati/amd and they worked fine, if the catalyst drivers don't work then you are in the shit, because nothing else is available that works as well, especially if you purchase a widescreen monitor.



Is it still screwy? That's the normal board isn't it? (there's one with DDR3 sideport for the 3200) Has it been working better or worse? (I'm hoping this is just drivers being screwy; I've always found Gigabyte very good quality, but nobody is immune to bad eggs)

Your quite right, I believe that it is just my mobo, my friend also has this mobo on windows and he has no trouble. My mobo is still screwey but I live with it. As for the new mobo, I don't know anything about it or how well it is supported under linux. The general rule is that if you intend to run linux never buy the latest hardware, but at this point you need to get some advice from real techos. As for now, the 780g is supported. Here in australia I bought my 780g for about $100 and I expect the new boards to be about the same. What I am trying to say here is that when the new stuff is supported it isn't a lot of money to buy a new mobo, and with AMD everything else is backwards compatible, so you can slowly upgrade as you get the money and need dictates.



So, should I just stick with the Catalyst that works, and upgrade when the people here who jump in say it's ready? Can you skip entire releases? (like go .6 to .8 without problems?)

Yes you can, if the drivers are working for you and fulfilling your needs then there is no need to upgrade, in all honesty the ati programmers seem to take two or three versions to get it right. So what do I mean by this?, if they announce feature A, it might not be completely functioning until two or three versions later. I really don't understand what they are doing, they either are really bad at what they do or they have crappy managers or they have inherited bad code and it is going to take some time to clean up, I just shake my head at the crap they produce.


Yeah I don't think nVidia is going to ever budge, so it's AMD all the way (except maybe for some low-power VIA stuff, like the VB7002G that solves all my HTPC problems )


I'm sorry I don't know anything about the VIA. AS for NVIDIA it has been the subject of long conversations between my friend and I as to where they are headed. If the latest stuff from amd/ati is as good as they say and NVIDIA have nothing else, then maybe we might see NVIDIA taken over, maybe by Intel?? who knows.



I don't have the cash for a few hard drives, but what I was thinking of doing is getting a working system, burn it to DVD with mondorescue, and then adding whatever I need... Then if the system crashes, I reload from Mondo Rescue, and skip whatever lead to instability. Is this the sort of thing you meant?

It's always great to have a fallback.

Absolutely, that sounds like a great way to go, there are many ways to skin a cat. Here in Australia I can purchase 500 gig drive for $75.



But you've shown me they're good enough




You've done a great deal for me none the less!

You wouldn't happen to know how the discrete cards are doing, would you? I'm thinking of getting a HD4870 or 4850 when the prices drop... And will UVD, if it's ever coming, get released for the HD3200/3450 class video cards? (was thinking of getting the HD3450 for an HTPC, to get better gaming performance or maybe h.264 decoding if it'll ever happen)

Unless you need to run games, hold off on buying cards until we see what the drivers are like, amd/ati will implement crossfire and uvd on linux thats what they said. If crossfire works as well as they said then that gives you other options.

If the drivers don't work for the card that you purchase, then its just junk. There have been some people here on this forum that can testify to this.

see this

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=amd_4870x2_open&num=1

and this

http://www.overclockers.com.au/article.php?id=703927

Hopefully some real techos will assist you with the nitty gritty of what is supported and not under linux.

Best regards
Muzza

[mdraicch]

Hi there. I have the Gigabyte ga-ma78gm-s2h 780G motherboard. Revision 1.0 whit F4 BIOS. (Phenom X4 9750 2.4Ghz, 4Gb memmory)

I just about a week ago installed Ubuntu 8.04 on it, the 64bit edition.

I can tell what problems I've had this far. No Linux operating software or rather no operating software core will work on this motherboard unless you set the motherboard to use less than 4Gb of memory.

There is a option in the advanced bios when you press ctrl+F1 that says. Over 4G memory mapping or something similar to that. if it's set to "over 4G".... Well good luck getting anything but windows to work whit 4G or more memory. There is a bad bug in the motherboard BIOS whit memory mapping and it screws up much stuff in the Linux/Unix etc place. Even memtest will screw up and not work... Set it to "Below 4G". I could not install Ubuntu or run even the live-cd before I set that option to "below 4G". There is a new BIOS F5 for the motherboard but I can't install it yet because I have no usb-drive or floppy connected to it so I can install the F5 BIOS so I don't know if the bug is fixed yet.

Well after that I installed Ubuntu and stuff works now but I can only have 3.5Gb memmory and not use my full 4Gb.
I installed 8.7 drivers and they work ok. You have all kind of problems around but I've decently satisfied whit it. Works somewhat stable, not entirely though. Gotten 2 cases where the desktop just dissapeard and I got a terminal that was totally empty and only just a prompt blinking and you could type whatever you wanted but nothing would happen... After reboot didn't find any error messages or whatnot. I don't really yet know where the logs are so I might have taken a look at wrong logs but didn't find any info there that something might have gone wrong.

You have video tearing, vsync problems. Compiz works fine though (maybe some vsync problems there but works nice and fine otherwise)
Video playback whit compiz is a bit off a hassle to get to work. Well I've managed to get non-blinking video in full-screen atleast.
I've been mostly trying to get good video playback this full week and not done much else. Haven't tried any 3D stuff except glxgears and compiz...

Hi Nighthog,

Cheers for this.
I dont have 4 gigs of mem so I haven't faced the problems you have, I did have the jumping video when compiz was actived so I just turned it off.

Thanks for this, it is important for us less technical people to get this sort of feedback, I only hope that ATI see some of these comments and act on them, I mean blinking video?? where does that come from??.
Anyway

Best regards
Muzza

[Jorophose]

Well, I'm not in any hurry to buy a card along with this computer. I'll be happy to get the basic parts first. I might not even buy a new card right away; will DDR3 really be that big of a boost? And aren't the Fusion/Nehalem series coming out soon enough?

A friend of mine wants to upgrade from a X2 4600+, and he's said if he does he'll just give it to me. If I can get it, I'll just drop some cash for a phenom later on if the prices drop further (like ~75$/~100$ for 65W parts), and then buy a matching video card (probably the HD5850 at that point ;P).

I want to get into gaming, but I'm a fan of beautiful gameplay over beautiful graphics. My gaming will probably be limited to 1366x768 or smaller, so it's not like I need the latest and greatest anyway. Then I'll probably upgrade in like 5 years down the line, to something with hybrid GPU/CPU. Seeing the trends of today, it's not like they're going to be low power anyway. And right now it doesn't seem like requirements would go up too sharp anyway, so might as well stick with the same system, and if I need to replace older ones go low-power parts...