openSUSE Factory & Tumbleweed Are Merging

[rikkinho]

hm

Ubuntu fanboy detected.

i doubt, but i agree opensuse is a mess

[brosis]

What? Are you just talking about KDE?


Again, KDE?


I can't comment on this since I've never used SUSE/OpenSUSE.


I find that to be perfectly clear. At the very least it's clearer than Ubuntu's Main, Restricted, Universe, Multiverse.


Nah flipping shit, Sherlock. SUSE/OpenSUSE put stability first.


Again, I can't comment on this. What exactly is 'broken' about it?
OpenSUSE was supposed to have greatly improved the stability of Tumbleweed and Factory recently.


Really now? Practically all non-Ubuntu distributions are like that.
"By default only free, open, non-patent encumbered formats such as Ogg Theora, Ogg Vorbis and Flac are supported for legal reasons (US software patents and Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA))." - http://opensuse-guide.org/codecs.php


man zypper


Again, be more specific.


Aaaaannnnd we a have troll here.

No, not KDE! I used MATE edition over 1 year on Samsung R60, until I wiped it! Do not scatter-quote, it makes conversation difficult!
I am talking about YaST2, not "KDE", its UGLY.
I agree about Ubuntu Universe/Multiverse - but its understandable - Universe (ubuntu supported), Multiverse(other); also on debian (main, contrib); on OpenSuse its long list of sense-less classification - it MAY look like acceptable, but because the base repository is VERY small, one quickly ends up with a HUGE ununderstandable list. I had repository for VLC, repo for codecs, repo for LibreOffice, repo for Cherrytree and so on.
"man zypper" -- go AHEAD and do this. Even zypper man documentation is SHIFTED as you scroll down. It stays okay till you use it for basic things, but when you want to do something advanced, like getting source only, or pin package, or install particular version - try it!

"Nah flipping shit, Sherlock. SUSE/OpenSUSE put stability first." Huge shit, Sherlock, because you either get outdated packages or must use rolling. And with current events, rolling is basically broken per definition - hence I posted. They are killing themself.

"Again, I can't comment on this. What exactly is 'broken' about it?"
Reason why I switched to first Debian-based SparkyLinux and now Manjaro, what added the amount over the top, is Firefox that suddenly started to occupy more than 2GiB of memory. There was no tabs open, I had every single addon disabled and cache cleared. No applications appeared in htop, the system got unresponsitive within 20 seconds, that includes TTY. After about 15 minutes of swapping, it went back to normal - but that repeated over and over. Clearly - Firefox bug.
Thing I tried was to find out how to go back to older version of Fx or to pin a package. Without any success. That was the turn point.

Design - yes, Opensuse is up to standard. Installation - yes, two thumbs up. AVAILABILITY of gui system control - yes. But rest - sucks so hard, its unusable! I can live with hard or buggy installation, but hard or buggy usage - is NOT acceptable.

"Really now? Practically all non-Ubuntu distributions are like that.
"By default only free, open, non-patent encumbered formats such as Ogg Theora, Ogg Vorbis and Flac are supported for legal reasons (US software patents and Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA))." - http://opensuse-guide.org/codecs.php"
Why, the fuck, I should care about USA?! Is USA - everything in this world or WHAT? USA patent laws are worst laws EVER. Ok, if you are from USA - use this and accept this, but why do you stretch USA over whole world?!! Amazing!! Practically (as in "practice") NO distributions are like that. 99% of desktop distributions(by amount value, not market share) ship in WORKING state, not in castrated state.
This is the brain dead "Are we in USA? Okay, then offer installation of payware or change country, otherwise install without questions." kind of thing.

No, "we" dont have a troll, we have a user that points at tons of things Opensuse did WRONG. I am ex-Arch, ex-Gentoo user, now mainly using Debian and Manjaro. I was done with Ubuntu in 2009.

[brosis]

Oh my goodness - who could ever figure out open-source, non-open-source, and source naming conventions on a repository?

Codecs? You've obviously never used openSUSE before. Or Fedora. Or Debian. And you don't know what either Tumbleweed or Factory refer to.

Newb/troll - you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Do yourself a favor and go back to Mint, let the adults deal with adult distros. I'm afraid you might poke your eye out with the sharp corner of a CD case or something.

I could not figure that out. I figured out Gentoo, Exherbo, Calculate, Debian - but not this. it was "oss, non-oss, oss-src, non-oss-src, debug, debug-src, wtf, wtf-src, non-wtf-src, thishasnonsense, thishas-no-sense"...!!! For just one main repo.

Yes, codecs! In debian, you add Debian Multimedia repo. Done. Never used Fedora, because its testers and not user distro.
I know exactly what Tumbleweed and Factory refer to - they are "testing" and "experimental", but their naming is very very confusing!!

I have more idea that you ever going to have in next 5 years, because if you are okay with crap like this, you are surely mind damaged. Yes - mind damaged.
Go open Opensuse package manager, its gonna pop up two or three windows with a scroll bar, that will jitter from 0 to 100% for whatever reason over and over. WHY? Why not unite all the fragmentated repos into one check, so it goes from 0 to 100 ONCE. Why does it do it every time I start the package manager. Not daily, hourly, but every time, with only manual ability to cancel it. Why does it do this on start?!

There are so many small things that angered me about OpenSuse, I write over and over about it so they at least can SEE this, perhaps they have eye problems!
Damn, using sidux was much much less problematic than this.

[brosis]

All trolling aside I think the messiest thing about openSUSE is their website. When google is easier to use to find what's on it than the site itself I think there's a problem there... Not only is it messy but some of their wiki and portals pages are severely outdated as well.

I guess I've grown accustomed to how simple and easy Arch's website is to find packages and check for info on their amazing wiki. Still, I like Debian Sid and I'm very much curious to try openSUSE rolling to see how it compares to Arch and Sid.

Their wiki and portals page contains HUGE FLOOD of information. But its not what does really matter, because one can take time and read stuff - its covered, but hard to find without web search. Wiki and portals are not the selling points of distro, well, unless its source based and one wants to exchange how-tos and ways.

Go try it, but you need to do a long run on dedicated machine, for production or office/home usage, several months. Only then you will maybe understand. Maybe sooner, after you add your 5th repo for just tools you use and then it borks on next upgrade, or you forget what for was that repo you added and will try to find out a function in zypper for that.
I dont question design, installer possibilities and presence of GUI config.
I question LOTS of small strange decisions, implemenations, lack of functionality and so on. Lots of "WTF" and "whys" around corners that make use very uncomfortable.

[TheBlackCat]

I could not figure that out. I figured out Gentoo, Exherbo, Calculate, Debian - but not this. it was "oss, non-oss, oss-src, non-oss-src, debug, debug-src, wtf, wtf-src, non-wtf-src, thishasnonsense, thishas-no-sense"...!!! For just one main repo.

You seriously don't know what "oss", "debug" and "src" mean? And why are you even bothering with them when they are set up by default?

[finalzone]

Yes, codecs! In debian, you add Debian Multimedia repo. Done. Never used Fedora, because its testers and not user distro..

Patented and closed sources codecs in Fedora is available via RPMFusion repository. Fedora is also for users too, the advent of tools like software changed that mindset Fedora is just a testbed. Most installation for casual users are done either by vendors or friends knowing about the system.

[andyprough]

I could not figure that out. I figured out Gentoo, Exherbo, Calculate, Debian - but not this. it was "oss, non-oss, oss-src, non-oss-src, debug, debug-src, wtf, wtf-src, non-wtf-src, thishasnonsense, thishas-no-sense"...!!! For just one main repo.

I understand. I think it's quite clear exactly where you are coming from. And I would imagine the feelings from the openSUSE community are probably mutual - theirs may not be your kind of distro, and you may very well not be their kind of user.

Glad that you could warn us all about these terrible problems. Your brave service to the interwebs is quite honorable.

[samigina]

Been serioue stheres two thing I cant stand of OpenSuse:

1. The iso system that they use. For make a Live USB I need to dd the iso into the usb and lost my ability to use all the space from the drive. Just ridiculous.
2. After the install I fire up the software magment tool, I want to install Inkscape, Gimp, Scribus and Clementine. But as it start it tries to install a lot of packages that I never asked for (600mb of files) they call them "Recommended".

[zanny]

For better or worse Suse still intersects as a junction of functionality nobody else provides.

Despite shitty stock repositories, almost anything under the sun is on software.opensuse.org (plus the pretty much mandatory packman repo) and the UX of that is significantly better than trying to use launchpad - ymp files are straightforward and it actually has a search. On Ubuntu you find the repo via Google and then doddle around looking for the right repo URL to add to your software manager to then be able to find the package via your choice package manager.

Snapper snapshotting on updates is really amazing. It uses too many of the stock ugly as sin Oxygen assets to my taste, but their visual style beats the crap out of stock Oxygen everything Kubuntu. It already supports systemd, and I can extremely hesitant to recommend an Ubuntu flavor to anyone right now with that transition coming up that will certainly break every system upgrade from a version before it. The release cycle is too slow for my taste, but 8 - 12 months means an annual upgrade that is plenty good enough for most average joes.

Maybe if Muon gets better after the Ubuntu family finishes its tectonic shift to systemd then Netrunner will be really sweet. Hell, even Kubuntu will be fine once it switches to plasma 5 and you get the fantastic Breeze theming rather than the gaudy Oxygen stuff. But for now there is no other stable comprehensive KDE distro that I can put on my grandmothers computer and expect it to still be working a few years from now.

[signersv]

You're doing it wrong!

As a long time openSuse user, I have to disagree with a lot of what has been said.

Brosis:

I agree about Ubuntu Universe/Multiverse - but its understandable - Universe (ubuntu supported), Multiverse(other); also on debian (main, contrib); on OpenSuse its long list of sense-less classification - it MAY look like acceptable, but because the base repository is VERY small, one quickly ends up with a HUGE ununderstandable list. I had repository for VLC, repo for codecs, repo for LibreOffice, repo for Cherrytree and so on.

In debian, you add Debian Multimedia repo. Done.

You only need 3 repositories, oss (open source software) non-oss (non open-source software) and packman ("restricted" software, no included by default for legal reasons, codecs, vlc - like your "Debian Multimedia" repo). It's all in the wiki under https://en.opensuse.org/Package_management Alternatively just googling "opensuse codecs" and choosing the first option take you to http://opensuse-guide.org/codecs.php telling you to add pacman. You can even go to http://software.opensuse.org/ search for vlc and it tells you to get the packman version with a link to it. A quick check shows that libreoffice and cherrytree are both in the default repos.

sven@linux-chqc:~> zypper info cherrytree
Loading repository data...
Reading installed packages...

Information for package cherrytree:
-----------------------------------
Repository: [B]repo-oss[/B]
Name: cherrytree
Version: 0.34.1-3.1
Arch: noarch
Vendor: [B]openSUSE[/B]
...

sven@linux-chqc:~> zypper info libreoffice
Loading repository data...
Reading installed packages...

Information for package libreoffice:
------------------------------------
Repository: [B]repo-oss[/B]
Name: libreoffice
Version: 4.3.2.2-1.1
Arch: x86_64
Vendor: [B]openSUSE[/B]
...

If you're adding new repositories for both of these then of course your system is going to end up in a mess of conflicting versions.

I know exactly what Tumbleweed and Factory refer to - they are "testing" and "experimental", but their naming is very very confusing!!

Wrong! Factory is a "tested, reliable and bleeding edge Linux distribution" . Tumbleweed was by no means supposed to be testing or experimental, it was all supposed to be updates to provide newer software versions yet fully stable. Since factory has now migrated to be reliable as well, the two overlap too much and so are being merged. Admittedly the naming is confusing but that's the whole point why they are being merged, to clarify things.

"Nah flipping shit, Sherlock. SUSE/OpenSUSE put stability first." Huge shit, Sherlock, because you either get outdated packages or must use rolling. And with current events, rolling is basically broken per definition - hence I posted. They are killing themself.

Really, you've got two options, stable or factory. The current tumbleweed is no longer properly maintained, hence it being replaced/merged with what is now factory. The current factory is easily stable enough for day to day use (I at least don't have any problems with it). Stable is also relatively up to date, for example: libreoffice is at version 4.1.6.2 while debian stable is still at 3.5.4; gimp is at 2.8.6 while debian stable is at 2.8.2. Furthermore this is with openSuse 13.1 - just days before the new 13.2 is released yet they are more up to date than debian stable. Stable is supposed to be just that, stable, not bleeding edge. For bleeding edge factory exists which is (almost always) at the newest upstream version. What more do you want?

Thing I tried was to find out how to go back to older version of Fx or to pin a package. Without any success. That was the turn point.

Seriously? Go to the openSuse wiki, portal Zypper, Usage. That take you here. If thats too much it's also the first result from googling "zypper usage". After that 4.4.1 Selecting Packages tells you how to select a specific version to install, while 4.6 tells you how to apply a package lock. Took me less the 2 minutes. Where the problem?

"Really now? Practically all non-Ubuntu distributions are like that.
"By default only free, open, non-patent encumbered formats such as Ogg Theora, Ogg Vorbis and Flac are supported for legal reasons (US software patents and Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA))." - http://opensuse-guide.org/codecs.php"
Why, the fuck, I should care about USA?! Is USA - everything in this world or WHAT? USA patent laws are worst laws EVER. Ok, if you are from USA - use this and accept this, but why do you stretch USA over whole world?!! Amazing!! Practically (as in "practice") NO distributions are like that. 99% of desktop distributions(by amount value, not market share) ship in WORKING state, not in castrated state.
This is the brain dead "Are we in USA? Okay, then offer installation of payware or change country, otherwise install without questions." kind of thing.

Patent laws exist in more countries than just the US. The Fedora project wiki states

Contrary to common belief, software patents are granted in some form or other in most countries, including most of the countries in which most Fedora participants reside.

Furthermore since Novell (based in the US) sponsors openSuse, openSuse can't go round breaking laws, while some other distributions may simply break these rules this isn't possible when sponsored by a large company as this would open up Novell to liability. The fedora wiki again states as a reason why fedora doesn't include such software but other distribution do

They are willing to deal with the risk somehow. In some cases, it is because they are not backed by a large and profitable company like Red Hat. Red Hat, the legal entity and primary sponsor of the Fedora Project determines its own risks which can be different from other organizations.

Practically the same applies with openSuse just replacing Red Hat with Novell. Indeed on the restricted formats page of the openSuses wiki it states

The software violates laws concerning software distribution in jurisdictions where Novell conducts business.

as a reason why packages are not included.

I am talking about YaST2, not "KDE", its UGLY.

Go open Opensuse package manager, its gonna pop up two or three windows with a scroll bar, that will jitter from 0 to 100% for whatever reason over and over. WHY? Why not unite all the fragmentated repos into one check, so it goes from 0 to 100 ONCE. Why does it do it every time I start the package manager. Not daily, hourly, but every time, with only manual ability to cancel it. Why does it do this on start?!

If you open the package manager, you probably want to do something related to packages, so having an up to date package list is helpfull. If you don't want this you can disable it in package repositories. Also, no one is forcing you to use YaST, you can use Apper or GNOME Packages for other GUI tools, zypper or packagekit for CLI tools. If you don't like yast, don't use it. If you want a package manager that looks pretty install Windows and have a lovely Installshield wizard for every program.



Rikkinho:

i doubt, but i agree opensuse is a mess

Care to elaborate?