If you want to understand why Poettering has won the Hitler-of-the-year-award several times in a row, this video is an eye-opening must-watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmTUW-owa2w
Ironically it is not about Poettering/systemd, but about some other guy in the gameing industry. Just replace "Phil Fish" with "Lennart Poettering", "gamer" with "linux user" and "gaming industry" with "open source community" - works perfectly! (For the politically interrested: this also works very well with Julian Assange or Edward Snowden btw.)
[Yep, I registered just to post this, because it fits so well, and is very well done, imho.]
I have no idea what kind of person Ian is, but his proposal sounds reasonable and rational, imho. It might lead to a situation where (almost) everone is (more or less) happy. As long as it doesn't postpone Jessie for months, AND it doesn't turn Debian into an unmaintainable patchfest (that lags even more behind), I support it.
As for the systemd/Poettering hateclub: Learn to read! Then DO IT! It looks kinda low-IQ-ish to emotionally bash something that you obviously didn't even educate yourself about. Any linux-curious windows admin seems to be more knowledgable about systemd than the average hatclub member. The same FUD is just copied&pasted over and over again.
Also please cut the emo/ego/psycho crap! If you want to discuss systemd, why is all this boulevard BS relevant? Poettering is "arrogant"? Then READ about the TEAMs design decisions! READ WHY these decisions were made. Would YOU bow down to the demands of clueless people, if you were in charge of something, just so that no one could call you arrogant? If yes, then I hope you are never in charge of something outside your basement!
Seriously: most of the answers are out there, you just have to READ it! READING makes your brain hurt? And that somehow makes Poettering arrogant? If I was him, I'd have lost my patience a looong time ago and went Torvalds on you. Protip: if you don't understand something, chances are, YOU lack info and reflection, and it is YOUR job to fix that. Not the job of the person who already knows what the hell he/she is doing. Sometimes the arrogant snob actually knows better than the armchair expert who doesn't even read.
And stop jumping to conclusions, born out of fears, who are in turn born out of a lack of knowledge. Please learn to distinguish between the theories in your mind, and reality. For all I care YOU might be a child molester. But that doesn't magically make it a FACT. FACTS are facts, mkay? But I'm SURE Poettering, RedHat, the reptilians and Hitler are having a secret base on the darkside of the moon, and are using systemd as a straightforward tool for world domination ... or something.
Systemd is no more "forced upon you" than the kernel, your distribution, BSD base, HTTP, or anything else that you didn't (co-)develop yourself. You have to understand that someones got to do the job. And THOSE people set the rules of THEIR project. Open source is not a democracy, and never has been. Contribute or say thanks! If no one actually writes the software that provides an actual alternative to the 70something systemD modules, than OF COURSE there is no alternative, and devs/maintainers have no real choice (except being stuck with the status quo). But it seems the people who are actually skilled enough to write something that provides the same things as systemD without being systemD, see no point in that.
Also: one of the main ideas behind systemD IS some unification among distributions. And thats good, if you actually have to get things done in time and in budget. And you STILL have all the freedom. You still have freedom of choice where it matters, without doing shit. And you still have ALL freedoms if you can code and have lots of spare time.
About fragmentation and freedom of choice: I see freedom of choice as a fundamental strength of OS. But not on bullshit like how to set the hostname! Please explain the benefits of having several different ways of doing that. I'm pro choice where it actually makes a difference, and where there are several pros and cons between different solutions. But I'm also against brainless fragmentation just for the illusion of choice.
Everything else I wanted to say, has been mentioned by others.
Some more to READ (that makes me look arrogant, right?) and reflect on:
PS: Watch the video! Internet mass-psychology 101.
Ironically it is not about Poettering/systemd, but about some other guy in the gameing industry. Just replace "Phil Fish" with "Lennart Poettering", "gamer" with "linux user" and "gaming industry" with "open source community" - works perfectly! (For the politically interrested: this also works very well with Julian Assange or Edward Snowden btw.)
[Yep, I registered just to post this, because it fits so well, and is very well done, imho.]
I have no idea what kind of person Ian is, but his proposal sounds reasonable and rational, imho. It might lead to a situation where (almost) everone is (more or less) happy. As long as it doesn't postpone Jessie for months, AND it doesn't turn Debian into an unmaintainable patchfest (that lags even more behind), I support it.
As for the systemd/Poettering hateclub: Learn to read! Then DO IT! It looks kinda low-IQ-ish to emotionally bash something that you obviously didn't even educate yourself about. Any linux-curious windows admin seems to be more knowledgable about systemd than the average hatclub member. The same FUD is just copied&pasted over and over again.
Also please cut the emo/ego/psycho crap! If you want to discuss systemd, why is all this boulevard BS relevant? Poettering is "arrogant"? Then READ about the TEAMs design decisions! READ WHY these decisions were made. Would YOU bow down to the demands of clueless people, if you were in charge of something, just so that no one could call you arrogant? If yes, then I hope you are never in charge of something outside your basement!
Seriously: most of the answers are out there, you just have to READ it! READING makes your brain hurt? And that somehow makes Poettering arrogant? If I was him, I'd have lost my patience a looong time ago and went Torvalds on you. Protip: if you don't understand something, chances are, YOU lack info and reflection, and it is YOUR job to fix that. Not the job of the person who already knows what the hell he/she is doing. Sometimes the arrogant snob actually knows better than the armchair expert who doesn't even read.
And stop jumping to conclusions, born out of fears, who are in turn born out of a lack of knowledge. Please learn to distinguish between the theories in your mind, and reality. For all I care YOU might be a child molester. But that doesn't magically make it a FACT. FACTS are facts, mkay? But I'm SURE Poettering, RedHat, the reptilians and Hitler are having a secret base on the darkside of the moon, and are using systemd as a straightforward tool for world domination ... or something.
Systemd is no more "forced upon you" than the kernel, your distribution, BSD base, HTTP, or anything else that you didn't (co-)develop yourself. You have to understand that someones got to do the job. And THOSE people set the rules of THEIR project. Open source is not a democracy, and never has been. Contribute or say thanks! If no one actually writes the software that provides an actual alternative to the 70something systemD modules, than OF COURSE there is no alternative, and devs/maintainers have no real choice (except being stuck with the status quo). But it seems the people who are actually skilled enough to write something that provides the same things as systemD without being systemD, see no point in that.
Also: one of the main ideas behind systemD IS some unification among distributions. And thats good, if you actually have to get things done in time and in budget. And you STILL have all the freedom. You still have freedom of choice where it matters, without doing shit. And you still have ALL freedoms if you can code and have lots of spare time.
About fragmentation and freedom of choice: I see freedom of choice as a fundamental strength of OS. But not on bullshit like how to set the hostname! Please explain the benefits of having several different ways of doing that. I'm pro choice where it actually makes a difference, and where there are several pros and cons between different solutions. But I'm also against brainless fragmentation just for the illusion of choice.
Everything else I wanted to say, has been mentioned by others.
Some more to READ (that makes me look arrogant, right?) and reflect on:
PS: Watch the video! Internet mass-psychology 101.
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