X.Org Is Looking For Some Female Help

[robclark]

I fail to see what an OPW (or, FWIW, any outreach program for discriminated groups) is actually good for in this state. Don't get me wrong, I am not opposed to it, I just don't get how they should change anything without removing the causes of the situation at first.
If there is hostility against a certain group in an environment you don't just invite more victims to it, you start with actually removing the hostility.
In other words: If there is discrimination against women in IT (and the statistics seem to indicate that) you start with removing the discriminators. What could be a better outreach to discriminated groups than openly removing the offenders (of course based on evidence)? IMHO a much better approach than just saying: Hey, we have an environment that is not very friendly to women, so we should bring more women into it. Of course after making the environment less hostile an outreach program can make sense.

Note that the OPW program (as well as the EVoC program) pairs the applicant with a mentor. The intention is to help them ramp up both technically (how the different parts fit together, how things are meant to work, etc), as well as from a community/process standpoint (where to send patches, how patch review process works, who to ask questions about various different areas of the stack, etc).

That said, I don't think there is actually hostility from any of the xorg dev's. At least the ones I have met in person are all pretty nice people. However getting up to speed with a large complex project might be intimidating? Maybe the patch review process is intimidating? ("who is this strange person nak'ing my patch?") Etc. I'm just thinking back to when I was a new xorg/dri contributer, maybe it is different for different people. Both OPW and EVoC are intended to try to help smooth the process of getting to know the project and community.

Really the only hostility I see is from the peanut gallery (ie. this thread).

[MoonMoon]

Note that the OPW program (as well as the EVoC program) pairs the applicant with a mentor. The intention is to help them ramp up both technically (how the different parts fit together, how things are meant to work, etc), as well as from a community/process standpoint (where to send patches, how patch review process works, who to ask questions about various different areas of the stack, etc).

That said, I don't think there is actually hostility from any of the xorg dev's. At least the ones I have met in person are all pretty nice people. However getting up to speed with a large complex project might be intimidating? Maybe the patch review process is intimidating? ("who is this strange person nak'ing my patch?") Etc. I'm just thinking back to when I was a new xorg/dri contributer, maybe it is different for different people. Both OPW and EVoC are intended to try to help smooth the process of getting to know the project and community.

Really the only hostility I see is from the peanut gallery (ie. this thread).

OK, that makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.

[erendorn]

1. this is under review

Read it. Make your own review

2. its from norway, that itself sets every study from there in question, its a totaly biased country. Everybody who would not proove that, would get fired in the moment they release it.

I won't even respond to that, especially given the last comment of your post. Or maybe I will: the researchers are from "The University of Pennsylvania", "Columbia University" and "New York University". Doesn't look like Norway

3. the amount of people in this study is very low 11% could be more or less randomly.

My bad it was 9%. Still largely above the 2% error bar displayed. Sample is 6,548, so not that low.

4. even if that number is true what does it say that race matter much mroe than sex? and people get way harder discremated if they are not white then by sex. So till there is no foreign outreach-programm this outreach programm is a joke.

You can cumulate sex and race. There are outreach programs for etnic minorities, and also social origins. Just not in this specific outreach program. You don't need every single outreach program to justify doing one.

5. so in a totaly manly dominated field, bosses invite nearly as much woman to interview than man? this sexists. I wonder how much invites people get when they try to get a job as a waiter or as a sekretairy or similar stuff:

http://womeninbusiness.about.com/od/challengeswomenface/a/jobswomendom.htm

OF COURSE THERE IS SEXISM, but in BOTH DIRECTION, so the real question is, over all industries, do woman get less invites not only in one industrie.

You misunderstand the study. They send the same CV, with different names and compare the rate of response depending on the name. The number of CVs with women or men names on them is irrelevant. Only the rate of selection is.

A Minority get always discreminated, we all have pre-judgement, so as long as there is not 50% woman in this field (what would be funny if only maybe 10% of the students are woman).

Gosh 11%, I would bet every penny I have that I would get more discreminated because I have overweight when I pin there a picture of me where u can see that. And hey if u are older then 50 u shurely get 80% less invites. So sry I cant see a reason why we must fight this extreme big discremination.

You can be a woman and be fat, and be over 50. It's cumulative. Also, obviously, the fact that there is hunger and war in the world does not mean one should not do anything about any other issue.

And another point, especialy in sweden I would not hire any woman except law forces me to. Why, their laws between woman and man are nuts, as example sex with woman without protection even if both sides agree to it, count as rape in their law system. Sorry I cant take such country serious.

Except that's not true, or how could they have babies I'm joking, but what you are saying is bullshit, which means that you're the one who cannot be taken seriously.
What count as rape there is having unprotected sex while one of the parties only consent to protected sex.

Here did you get this -11%? I'm not being rude, I'm in a very good mood.
I'm assuming I clicked the wrong link, skipped a line, didn't see a figure or even I can't read a graphic or a study at all. In it, it refers to Caucasian male vs others but I trust this study and the raw data is there and, as I said, I'm the one missing something here.

Nowhere, I misread, it's -9%, page 33. Page 32 also has results per sub-groups.
The paper is not super readable, but some results are interesting (in particular, for some etnicity it's better to be a female, namely blacks and hispanics). Paper is here if you missed the link in the blog page: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.c...act_id=2063742

[CarlosP]

Just for the sake of argument, let's say you are right that this is simply a result that fewer women are intrested in this project. (And, to be clear, I think *starting* with this *assumption* about the reason behind the statistics, in the lack of any sort of proof, is sexist. But just for the sake of argument..) What is the worst that happens? We get no applicants? Where is the problem in that. We are not exactly turning away qualified EVoC applicants due to lack of funds. This new program is *not* taking away anything from anyone.

Just for the sake of argument, let's say you are right that this is simply a result that fewer women are intrested in this project. (And, to be clear, I think *starting* with this *assumption* about the reason behind the statistics, in the lack of any sort of proof, is sexist. But just for the sake of argument..) What is the worst that happens? We get no applicants? Where is the problem in that. We are not exactly turning away qualified EVoC applicants due to lack of funds. This new program is *not* taking away anything from anyone.

People like myself who have donated to x.org in the past have done so with the intention that the money would go towards improving the x.org project in the best way possible, not to support the deeply misguided views of those running the project.

People who have run for-profit businesses in the real world employ people based on their merits rather than their genitalia.

If you want to produce a product that competes with the Microsofts, Googles and Apples of this world, you need to act like them. It's this kind of do-gooder mentality which will lead x.org into oblivion.

[robclark]

People like myself who have donated to x.org in the past have done so with the intention that the money would go towards improving the x.org project in the best way possible, not to support the deeply misguided views of those running the project.

oh, FFS people! Do some research before you say stupid things! Requirements for the applicants are the same between EVoC and OPW.. if we don't find someone qualified and interested, no loss. If we do, it is one more contributer. How the hell is that a problem?

People who have run for-profit businesses in the real world employ people based on their merits rather than their genitalia.

Not that this has anything to do with anything, but xorg foundation is not a for-profit business. But that is completely off topic here, since the merits by which an applicant are considered are the same.

If you want to produce a product that competes with the Microsofts, Googles and Apples of this world, you need to act like them. It's this kind of do-gooder mentality which will lead x.org into oblivion.

We need more contributers on the graphics stack. How is trying to attract more applicants who might not otherwise consider applying a path to oblivion??

Seriously, WTF. Lose the misguided rhetoric, and gain some fact checking please!

[erendorn]

People who have run for-profit businesses in the real world employ people based on their merits rather than their genitalia.

Hahaha

Oh wait you were serious.
People employ people based on their looks, race, age, network and genitalia, although most often it's unconscious. They do it a bit on merits, but it's much harder to evaluate correctly.
Well at least that's what I've observed working in for-profit businesses in the real world

[blackiwid]

Except that's not true, or how could they have babies I'm joking, but what you are saying is bullshit, which means that you're the one who cannot be taken seriously.
What count as rape there is having unprotected sex while one of the parties only consent to protected sex.

Sorry but its a fact, a very prominent one:

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/12/02/sweden-assange-sex-without-condom/

And of course many who break this law all fathers are criminals in this law but because not all wifes tell the police that, the dont go to jail. But if every woman would go after such act to police, their would be either full prisons in sweden or no childs anymore.

Except maybe then the woman would made themself pregnet with some bought sperms insertions.

But then we better hope that this companies who sell that, can hide the names of the donators or they should fear prison, too.

Its absurd but still its their law. It does not matter that its absurd its sweden...



Ahh I think u know the case? else u would not have said your last sentence. But it makes no sense what u are saying. u cant be not willing to make sex unprotected and get not raped but still get forced to do it.

It makes absolute no sense u cant force somebody to have unprotected sex while he agrees to this sex act and let it happen, either its a full rape or no rape, there is no thing between, except u live in this retard-land. opposite-land...

[cwabbott]

Really the only hostility I see is from the peanut gallery (ie. this thread).

http://xkcd.com/386/

[erendorn]

Sorry but its a fact, a very prominent one:

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/12/02/sweden-assange-sex-without-condom/

Ahh I think u know the case? else u would not have said your last sentence.

I'm well aware of this case, and your link does not state anywhere that sex without condom is illegal (a non swedish layer says "apparently", wow, what a definite source. Maybe you could come, with, say, a text of law, or even a jurisprudence?).

Furthermore, he has not been judged nor convicted. There are only allegations at this point, although they have been considered sufficiently credible to pursue.
The accusations are not public, but they are generally considered to be (e.g. wikipedia):
"The concern of the case surrounds the use of condoms, in one of the instances he allegedly removed the condom part way through sex while the sex was consensual only on its use." (I have also heard "purposely damaged condom")
So, you have:
- sex, and
- absence of consent
Which happens to be the definition of rape. Judging the absence or not of consent in this case is difficult, and is the job of the judge. Nowhere does the law says that the absence of protection is the issue (ie: you're talking bullshit)

But it makes no sense what u are saying. u cant be not willing to make sex unprotected and get not raped but still get forced to do it.

It makes absolute no sense u cant force somebody to have unprotected sex while he agrees to this sex act and let it happen, either its a full rape or no rape, there is no thing between, except u live in this retard-land. opposite-land...

Well that's the point she was not willing to make unprotected sex, she stated it beforehand, he allegedly did it anyway.

Oh, free life tip (could be useful one day):
"doing it" does not mean "consenting to it".

[MoonMoon]

Sorry but its a fact, a very prominent one:

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/12/0...ithout-condom/

No, it is not, and you would know that if you actually would look at the source, the Swedish Penal Code, which can be found here: http://www.government.se/content/1/c...7/cb79a8a3.pdf
The chapter about sex crimes is chapter 6. Now read it and show us the part that supports your "fact".