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  • Originally posted by MartinN View Post
    If my organization joins.... the "Outreach program for persecuted Christians"... can I advertise that I am looking for authentic Christians to fill the position? Can that pass legal muster - I think that's my question here.

    Where, by the way, does it say that we must have diversity? In the same building our office was up till a few months ago, there's a rather successful internet marketing company that is full of hot women.... I don't see them advertising exclusively for women... nor for men. They just advertise the position, but end up hiring more women than men. So, should we now end up complaining to them they're not diverse enough?

    This politically correct disease that has gotten America's moral/social compass flipped in the wrong direction, has got to -STOP-. PLEASE USE LANGUAGE THAT DOESN'T IDENTIFY ANY PREFERENCE OTHER THAN THE SKILL SET. And then in the interviews, if you like the female candidate, hire her over the male - that decision can stand up in court - we ARE allowed to discriminate who we hire as a company.

    For Christ's sake..... God help us.
    Not sure how religion is helping here

    In a perfect world, you would be right. But there are more factors than pure skills here. Namely, harassment and general or passive hostility. This *may* be a factor that could explain why we never had a woman apply to our EVoC program.

    In order to asses the situation and send an open message to women, we advertise that we would be willing to pay for ONE project, as part of the OPW program. Result? It would seem like everyone is losing his mind just because the program exists! If the program is successful, it clearly means there is a need for it!

    Just to be even clearer, women could apply to the EVoC program and they would not be treated differently. We are merely sending a message telling we are welcoming everyone, women included!

    Now, remind me again what is entirely wrong here?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by M?P?F View Post
      Result? It would seem like everyone is losing his mind just because the program exists!
      Given your sexist usage of possessive pronouns, your support for discriminatory hiring practices is not surprising.

      Originally posted by M?P?F View Post
      Just to be even clearer, women could apply to the EVoC program and they would not be treated differently. We are merely sending a message telling we are welcoming everyone, women included!

      Now, remind me again what is entirely wrong here?
      1. Allocating resources based on a hypotheses with no supporting evidence.
      2. Prioritizing a cause over the x.org product.
      2. Patronizing women.
      3. Discriminating against men.
      4. An extremely disingenuous understanding of gender differences and how they apply to the workforce.
      5. Diverting limited funds given by the community for x.org to other purposes.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by daniels View Post
        I look forward to your railing at every single male game developer who's ever bought a drink for a journalist as evidence of CORRUPTION!!!!!!!!!! Or look at every single relationship inside tech and claim that those are somehow corrupt too. But I'm not holding my breath, because the fact you've chosen this one person, out of the entire history of the industry to target, speaks volumes.
        Zoe Quinn actively and wilfully sabotaged a gamejam for women because she didn't want competition.

        Your continued defence of this abuser is proof that you are nothing more than another yet another mansplaining misogynist bigot who thinks women are helpless and need special treatment.

        You are raping women. Stop.

        The Truth has been spoken.

        Comment


        • For all those who can't understand why people get mad when they see this women-only promotion
          For all those who says are promoting diversity,
          For all those who preach affirmative discrimination as a good thing,
          For all those who cries misogynist at the four winds,
          For all those who says that a smaller number of women in area X is just because a unfriendly environment,
          For all those who promotes feminist agenda under the disguise of equality.

          I dare you go where the are fewer men and make them shove men there for the sake of the equality!
          Someone spoke of nursery and there is a good start.
          Go there and yell how they are not making the workplace more men friendly!

          More, why don't your type come here where I work and am practically the only man and have to listen every single day from my female coworkers sexist BS like "men are sooo stupid" or "men worths nothing" and do some political correctness to them? Cause you are very efficient in places where to opposite occurs.

          Stop being biased and adjust the two sides of the equation. Then you will not see more this type of skepticism. Then you can say you are trying to make things equals.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by M?P?F View Post
            Not sure how religion is helping here
            We're all religious. What do I mean by this? The template is - from the moment you get up till the moment you go to sleep (or die), you do A, B or C... all of which is driven by your personal worldview.. (i.e. 'belief system'), which at its zenith has god (your purpose/meaning) whom you serve - be that the acquisition of money/wealth...knowledge...fame..recognition...admiratio n...whatever fills you up. One could say a lot of people here on Phoronix have technology/science as their god, they live,breathe,"eat" technology every waking moment.... Reason I dragged "religion" (or Christ) into it, is because I am Christian, and at my zenith of behaviors and beliefs, actions, words, it's Jesus.

            You don't hold "religion" at bay, in the way I share it here - your religion is who you are, what you represent.... and shoot for. The right word probably for this might be Being... as Heidegger would put it rather than religion.. We're all being...someone or something. No exceptions. Anyway... enough about this , though it's one of my favorite topics.


            In a perfect world, you would be right. But there are more factors than pure skills here. Namely, harassment and general or passive hostility. This *may* be a factor that could explain why we never had a woman apply to our EVoC program.
            Going back to my previous example - the marketing company.... there's a majority of women employees there. By your logic, harassment, or general/passive hostility shouldn't occur there? Or is it when we have an ideal 50-50 split between male/female employees, harassment dissipates? This is what I can't explain to myself with these "diversity" programs. Hiring any particular subgroup, on an ethnical, racial, sexual, or any other basis does not preclude, alleviate or dissipate any of these issues. How does one go from hiring more females or more males or more of any group of people to reducing corrupt behavior, is beyond me. I can't connect the dots, honestly.

            In order to asses the situation and send an open message to women, we advertise that we would be willing to pay for ONE project, as part of the OPW program. Result? It would seem like everyone is losing his mind just because the program exists! If the program is successful, it clearly means there is a need for it!

            Just to be even clearer, women could apply to the EVoC program and they would not be treated differently. We are merely sending a message telling we are welcoming everyone, women included!

            Now, remind me again what is entirely wrong here?
            Ok, maybe I was too harsh in labeling it "wrong"... so I stand corrected. Let me explain better - if there's a really strong candidate, a male, for the position... and virtually hardly any good women candidates for the project - again, I have to contrive here just to make a point - but an entirely possible one - then what we get into is the equivalent of 'affirmative action' (look that up on the ACLU website...) for women. Though affirmative action had its use and run... when taken to an extreme, will produce the EXACT same effect it originally tried to reverse...if we let it rip on inertia, forever, as if it's Gospel and it isn't.

            Women...now rather than people of color... become "victims" in the public perception because of a few asshole males who can't keep their mouths shut at times..... and the rest of the male population who doesn't act out of integrity, gets shafted on the account of a minority.

            So all I am saying is - beware of these "women only", "men only", "homosexuals only", "<insert label> only" programs that foster this victimhood mentality because of a few bad apples..... Laws... have to apply, ideally, to everyone. I know it isn't easy to craft them - thus it's a full time job (Congress...and they suck, but it's the best we got), but that is what bothered me, if you must know.

            I'm a male, for the record.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Tom B View Post
              Back on topic and my thoughts on the subject.

              1) There is a huge gender imbalance in the tech world, this can't be healthy and does need to be addressed
              Agreed.

              Originally posted by Tom B View Post
              2) "Women only" positions is not the best way to achieve this. One of the complaints already mentioned in this thread is that women often get less respect and their opinions undervalued compared to male colleagues. If a woman is hired--because she's a woman-- how do you think her colleagues will view her? This sends out entirely the wrong message, it's saying "Women cannot get jobs on their own merit and need a step up". which helps nobody and simply perpetuates the notion that tech is a boy's club. It's actually downright detrimental to what it's trying to achieve. By enforcing gender divides like this you re-focus people's attention on gender and steer both men and women towards thinking that women aren't as able or capable as men to make it on their own. Women then have to work twice as hard just to prove they were hired on merit and not to fill a quota! Nobody wins out of that.
              Agreed.

              Originally posted by Tom B View Post
              3) Surely in any job the person with the most experience should get it regardless of gender, race, sexuality. "Positive" discrimination is still discrimination, and as evidenced even in this thread, creates resentment for those being discriminated against for being the wrong gender.
              Agreed.

              Originally posted by Tom B View Post
              4) It's an issue of social attitude and has little to do with either opportunity or ability. Giving women more opportunities does not really help that because men and women already have the same opportunities. Fewer women than men do computer science degrees, that is the problem. We need to be encouraging women at the educational level not in the job market.
              Agreed.

              Comment


              • The fact that even the slightest suggestion at bridging the gender gap triggers such a strong self-defence in 'tech' males proves that there's still A LOT of work to be done.

                If your first thought after reading the headline was 'discrimination!' then YOU ARE EXACTLY THE PROBLEM this is about. Stop the knee jerk, and start thinking.
                Last edited by Remdul; 05 September 2014, 06:12 PM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by M?P?F View Post
                  Just to be even clearer, women could apply to the EVoC program and they would not be treated differently. We are merely sending a message telling we are welcoming everyone, women included!

                  Now, remind me again what is entirely wrong here?
                  Start a Outreach Program for all but female sex. And i bet the feminists will tell you what is wrong with that. See?

                  Comment


                  • And I would like to add to my earlier comment: there are of course plenty sensible males who totally agree with the cause of gender equality. Please speak up (as I did above) whenever these flamewars arise. I'm optimistic; I believe the whiners are only a vocal minority. This is why we must drown them out! That's how it works!

                    So speak up!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by k1l_ View Post
                      Start a Outreach Program for all but female sex. And i bet the feminists will tell you what is wrong with that. See?
                      What part of outreach don't you understand? An outreach for men program in a traditionally female-only environment like sewing or gymnastics wouldn't be perceived negatively at all.

                      Comment

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