X.Org Is Looking For Some Female Help

[Luke_Wolf]

Well I agree with that, but that was one guys post. You should probably quote him instead of the guy who I was arguing with (who btw, said something incredibly hypocritical by showing a comic of "guy's generalizing girls" followed directly by a generalization of 'males'... which you apparently thought was a "voice of reason"... sigh...).



No, it doesn't deny them the opportunity. You're using the wrong terminology. I mean, are you really suggesting that women need their hand's held in order to get into a profitable industry? BTW, I recognize the imbalance and have stated multiple times already that I support (or better put, "don't see anything wrong with") Xorg/Gnome/whoever spending a small portion of their budgets on outreach programs for women or whoever. What bugs me is that when I argue that gender neutral programs are best (for multiple reasons) I'm called sexist for it. I'm not being sexist, I'm being practical.

BTW, you're blowing the amount of sexist posts in this thread out of proportion. Which is exactly why so many react in opposite kind. It's true there are opinionated people here (welcome to Phoronix), but only one or two people have been "horribly misogynistic". That's just group mechanics (you see the same irrational responses on any Wayland vs Mir threads), and doesn't lend much of any weight to the need for gender-specific programs (not that there's anything wrong with them).

So very much this ^

Most people in this thread who have responded negatively to Xorg's program are for gender-neutrality not misogamy. They might not be stating it as eloquently as myself or F i L, but the message is pretty clear. While I can't speak for others I don't believe that discrimination is the answer to discrimination perceived or real. All that does is set up an Us vs Them situation which perpetuates the status quo, thus resulting in exactly the kind of behavior seen in this thread where those pushing for real equality are automatically labeled as misogamist pigs.

The reality is equality can only happen when we're not sorting people into boxes and instead dealing with them as the individuals they actually are at every level. This doesn't mean we shouldn't be examining how various subsections of the populace operate, but that we should be treating individuals based on who they actually are not what they are. This means we shouldn't be defending someone just because they're female, paying deference just because someone is old, or following other similar social constructs. Instead we should be examining the individual themselves and not kneejerking just because they belong to group A, but instead treating them as appropriate based upon our examination of them as the individual they are. This is also not to say labels don't apply to people. Someone can be a woman, a furry, an anime fan, a NEET, or whatever, but that only answers the what not the who.

Now let's think about the following question: Who codes? The answer is nerds and geeks, and pretty much nobody else. Why? Well to put it quite simply at least in American culture it's not cool to be interested in technology, or actually much of anything. Instead you have to be either a sports star, a shallow but famous actor/actress, or the latest boy band to be cool. As a society we're told we're not allowed to have interests in other things, and that instead we are to aspire to be cookie cutter people that nobody actually likes.

So how do we change this? At least for the IT sector we have to promote the general public actually being interested in technology and promoting things like coding and actually being interesting people as a result. How do we do this? We have to target the youth. How do we do that? Teach your kids (and anyone else willing to learn) to code, explore different operating systems, and put together their own computers, and support organizations like http://code.org that are trying to push IT into K-12 schools. You do that and you make IT interesting and cool and as a side effect achieve your goal of drawing women into the community.

[smitty3268]

Most people in this thread who have responded negatively to Xorg's program are for gender-neutrality not misogamy.

I do think that's true for some people here, however

While I can't speak for others I don't believe that discrimination is the answer to discrimination perceived or real.

Perhaps you could explain exactly how this is discrimination?

My understanding is that if it was discrimination, you'd need to have some opportunity taken away from you, right? Can you tell me what opportunity you are unable to do? The EVoC is open to anyone, so this basically comes down to a little advertisement targeted towards women, as far as i can tell.

So the fact that people see that and instantly jump to the conclusion that discrimination is going on seems to indicate something to me. That it's the conclusion people want to jump to, for example, rather than calmly and rationally looking at the actual situation. I suspect it's an unconscious thing for many of the people here, something like confirmation bias - everyone is so eager to complain about anything pro-women that they see everything even loosely related to that through a lense.

[k1l_]

Perhaps you could explain exactly how this is discrimination?

My understanding is that if it was discrimination, you'd need to have some opportunity taken away from you, right? Can you tell me what opportunity you are unable to do? The EVoC is open to anyone, so this basically comes down to a little advertisement targeted towards women, as far as i can tell.

No, that is not how it works. If you setup a job offer and say: "its for all but for women. And its not discrimination because women could get a job at another company." This would be actual discrimination.

But if you do this program only for one gender (well its actually for all possible genders but male) and say: "hey its all fine, can not be discrimination because there are other projects where men could take part" this is not discriminating?

i could live with every side of this solutions. but not with both at the same time. so please, dear feminists, choose one rule what actually discrimination is and stick to it. and dont change the rules just to your best in every situation. because this will make the people just step away from the the idea of equal chances for every human, no matter what gender, colour, origin etc.

[MarcosFA]

i could live with every side of this solutions. but not with both at the same time. so please, dear feminists, choose one rule what actually discrimination is and stick to it. and dont change the rules just to your best in every situation. because this will make the people just step away from the the idea of equal chances for every human, no matter what gender, colour, origin etc.

That's exactly the problem of this minions of political correctness, they don't see this constant chance of definition of what is discrimination by those they blindly follow, cause their are just interested in shout in the faces of those who disagree with them the label they created themselves for this purpose (if you you don't accept this you are something-ism, if you don't accept that you are stuff-o-phobic).

[MarcosFA]

The fact that even the slightest suggestion at bridging the gender gap triggers such a strong self-defence in 'tech' males proves that there's still A LOT of work to be done.

If your first thought after reading the headline was 'discrimination!' then YOU ARE EXACTLY THE PROBLEM this is about. Stop the knee jerk, and start thinking.

This male bashing feminist explanation of gender gap is a fraud.
If you are still spreading this lies YOU ARE EXACTLY THE PROBLEM. Stop the knee jerk and start thinking.

[blackiwid]

There's just so many manchilds here who seem to feel so afraid and threatened that their sausage club is getting invaded by icky girlz... I just can't bear it, it's just so fucking sad.

thats part of the problem double standards, if a man feels discreminated because he is a man he has no balls he should stand over it he should not care, or something or he is a pussy basicly.

its always the same... if a man cant climax woman female reporters make jokes of it, if a woman cant climax lets think whos fault is it?

But hey man should be fine he should stand over the daily sexism against man because he has balls... yes yes...

[dee.]

thats part of the problem double standards, if a man feels discreminated because he is a man he has no balls he should stand over it he should not care, or something or he is a pussy basicly.

Nope. There's some real problems where men are discriminated against, which are largely caused by the same sexist attitudes which cause discrimination against women. But this isn't one of them. This is a male-dominated field, where lots of people are openly hostile towards women, and the people who actually do things (developers) are trying to counter this with an outreach towards a group to make them feel more welcome, and some of those manchildren are getting upset because so far they've been able to get away with their no-girls-allowed little sausagefest.

You pretend to be for equality, you pretend like you'd be totally fine with getting women into FOSS development, but for some reason you cry out at any measures taken towards making that happen...

its always the same... if a man cant climax woman female reporters make jokes of it, if a woman cant climax lets think whos fault is it?

The excuses are getting more and more convoluted... now we can't make an outreach to women because some trash magazines write badly about male sex problems? Yeah, that makes all kinds of sense...

[jadrian]

We don't know, but statistics don't lie. It is highly improbable that so few women would be interested in this project. Why are you aggressive?

Why are you making a distinction for people who have coding skills or not? Everyone should have a happy time! They may not get funded if they don't fill the requirements but that doesn't mean we don't have to be friendly with everyone.

The amount of bullshit in such a small argument is astonishing.

Statistics don't lie, but you're speaking for them. One could also argue, well statistics don't lie, therefore there must be few women interested in this project. But you don't like that interpretation, so dismiss it, come up with another one of your own, and back it up it's validity with "statistics not lying". It's mind boggling.

And of course then you ad a veiled ad hominem, in the form of "why are you so aggressive", because after all he said the word "hell". How about you don't read his text in such an aggressive manner, I'm sure it'll sound nicer then.

It's like SJW 101. You guys must be taking online courses to learn how to argue in the exact same manner.

[smitty3268]

No, that is not how it works. If you setup a job offer and say: "its for all but for women. And its not discrimination because women could get a job at another company." This would be actual discrimination.

Except as I pointed out above, it's the exact same job for the exact same company. If you want to ignore all arguments and just re-post talking points like a cable news network then fine, but let's not pretend it's anything more than that.

[blackiwid]

The excuses are getting more and more convoluted... now we can't make an outreach to women because some trash magazines write badly about male sex problems? Yeah, that makes all kinds of sense...

its funny I refered to your statement, now u refer to my post and the article, if you would have read my other post u would have read that, I have nothing against such a programm, if there are similiar programms in other fields and especialy on colleges for helping man because they loose the education fight against woman, less are succesful in schools.

And I dont belive in your sausage theory, I am a man I did not get a job with a degree in computer science. So like u have a dick and u automaticly have a good job does not work.

Its a hard business, when the employers see that they can make more money with a person they get the job, its that simple, this sausage bosses dont care at all about their employes they want to earn money if they could hire apes to earn more money they would do so.

Why does nearly nobody question that people with foreign names get discreminated, because there is actual scientific proofe of it, they made tests send same applications with different names and got less invites.

If thats true for woman too, make that tests, why did that never happen? income statistics are not a good messurepoint, 1. companies calculate in that many woman get at some point pregnant and they have to pay them money for that time, and woman often work less hours, thats sad for the few woman that dont want both of that, but if they could sign of their payments if they get pregnent I am shure the boss would raise their income.

So again its easy to proove it really that woman get more discreminated than man. make such studies. send applications with female and male man to companies I am pretty shure that woman get around the same times a interview.

So why does nobody thinks that there is need for a real proof, because its a religion, religion u are not allowed to question.