Systemd 216 Piles On More Features, Aims For New User-Space VT

[justmy2cents]

systemd will end up getting a 3d engine. I called it here first.

bah, that is still a long way to go to be even mentioned compared to the fact that print server in xorg got support for glxgears, now beat this

[jrch2k8]

Aside the fact I dislike GNU/Linux for a minute and I am a BSD user:

It seems RedHat is making all the other distros their bitch by adding systemd as a hard dependency.

More seriously, systemd has indeed moved beyond the scope of init... My question is why not adopt the BSD rc init. System V init has its issues, but BSD rc init has nothing wrong with it.

Systems is rapidly looking like the next HAL in terms of questionable enhancements, but I'm actually enjoying watching GNU/Linux become more like an OS X or Windows clone. Sitting from here on the comfy pillar of BSD is fun.

if systemd didn't and we had to grab another init system from another UNIX like OS i will grab solaris or AIX init systems any day of the week, after that i will go with QNX or BEos and after that i will return to SySV instead of touching BSD rc

[Guest]

well i don't expect any rage troll to read this but well, here is what it means

* Cache and DNS resolver is targeted for systemd containers, LXC(very likely), embedded systems and is very minimal focused on those targets IS NOT FOR YOUR OCTA CORE HASWELL DESKTOP

* VT code is meant for all systems because once vt is made optional or removed from the kernel you need to bring up kmscon somehow party of geniuses, the current example kmscon code starts too late, so it make sense to optimise the start directly from systemd since logind and cgroups are already part of systemd.

If any of you trolls bother enough to read what every module of systemd is targeted for before show to the world that you are absolutely ignorant about what you are trolling about, that would be nice.

BTW, most of the features you have seen in systemd since 100(ish) releases are meant almost exclusively for embedded and ultra high density virtualization not for desktop use, so if you take your head out of your arse and realize linux work in lot more places that your desktop you will see people in this area welcome very gladly this features because make their work 100 times easier and skyrocket efficiency for their needs. Also you should notice all those features are completely optional and nicely isolated from the core init system and pretty much every distribution that build systemd with every option active like ARCH they come disable by default from upstream.

literate yourself people, read is actually not that hard

Well, luckily most modules that one doesn't really need can be still disabled (and I would recommend it, since defaults are rather insane).
The only things that run on my main box after boot are init, udevd and journald.
And I masked pretty much everything else that I either don't use (localed,resolved,timesyncd) or that explicitly insults me (namely logind, /etc/systemd/).

Overall, I'm in sortof love-hate relationship with systemd, while I love init and udev functionalities, I don't care about anything else and hate many other things.
Journald is amazing except the fact that by default it is slow, allowed to grow to 10% of disk size and is ridiculously slow when you use CoW fs such as btrfs (oh so you wanted to see journald -b? wait a minute.. or two).

I don't actually get the fanboys/haters, as every complex thingy it has it's pros and cons. But I certainly hate it's default settings.

[justmy2cents]

Aside the fact I dislike GNU/Linux for a minute and I am a BSD user:

It seems RedHat is making all the other distros their bitch by adding systemd as a hard dependency.

More seriously, systemd has indeed moved beyond the scope of init... My question is why not adopt the BSD rc init. System V init has its issues, but BSD rc init has nothing wrong with it.

Systems is rapidly looking like the next HAL in terms of questionable enhancements, but I'm actually enjoying watching GNU/Linux become more like an OS X or Windows clone. Sitting from here on the comfy pillar of BSD is fun.

i know you mentioned part of the comment is supposed to be joke. i just don't get if that is supposed to be part about BSD rc.init or "comfy pillar of BSD is fun"

[TeamBlackFox]

if systemd didn't and we had to grab another init system from another UNIX like OS i will grab solaris or AIX init systems any day of the week, after that i will go with QNX or BEos and after that i will return to SySV instead of touching BSD rc

Sun's init is pretty cool. What is the issue with BSD rc though in your eyes?

[Guest]

Aside the fact I dislike GNU/Linux for a minute and I am a BSD user:

It seems RedHat is making all the other distros their bitch by adding systemd as a hard dependency.
...
Systems is rapidly looking like the next HAL in terms of questionable enhancements, but I'm actually enjoying watching GNU/Linux become more like an OS X or Windows clone. Sitting from here on the comfy pillar of BSD is fun.

1) There are quite a few people at RedHat who feel awkward about Lennarts policies (won't name anyone, but I personally know a few RH guys)
2) Well, most of *NIX users is conservative bunch with this mindset 'We don't break userspace' even for new features.
Systemd doesn't care about your machine that you tuned for years and will break your handcrafted powersave policies by installing a daemon that will suspend your laptop when you close the lid regardless of wheather you have external monitor plugged in (and yeah, they might have fixed it, but merely updating your systemd needs caution since things are often going to break or misbehave).

I still wonder why haven't somebody taken v197 and taken 'conservative' approach while 'backporting' new things, but I guess it would require too much work. I personally had my 'nonstandard' setup broken 3 times since v197 till 215.
Which is a LOT.

[jrch2k8]

Well, luckily most modules that one doesn't really need can be still disabled (and I would recommend it, since defaults are rather insane).
The only things that run on my main box after boot are init, udevd and journald.
And I masked pretty much everything else that I either don't use (localed,resolved,timesyncd) or that explicitly insults me (namely logind, /etc/systemd/).

Overall, I'm in sortof love-hate relationship with systemd, while I love init and udev functionalities, I don't care about anything else and hate many other things.
Journald is amazing except the fact that by default it is slow, allowed to grow to 10% of disk size and is ridiculously slow when you use CoW fs such as btrfs (oh so you wanted to see journald -b? wait a minute.. or two).

I don't actually get the fanboys/haters, as every complex thingy it has it's pros and cons. But I certainly hate it's default settings.

well since you used the word "masked" i assume you use gentoo, in that case you don't need to mask(more accurately negative -USE) because they don't autostart without explicit systemctl commands they just take disk space(if you need to save space is fine then). logind is far better than the alternative and pretty much do nothing after the session is started but i agree in gentoo is really annoying to fully mask consolekit to switch to logind but if you still use consolekit you should migrate since that is a long time dead project for several years already.

yeah journald have to iron some issues with btrfs or btrfs with journald, not sure who exactly is at fault there, btw /etc/systemd is innocuos and basically anything in that folder is not used without a previous systemctl command to activate each extra feature, so you can just let it be(the default are sane for the target platforms tho but in a desktop don't make sense and that is why they are disable by default)

[jrch2k8]

Sun's init is pretty cool. What is the issue with BSD rc though in your eyes?

well is not entirely with the rc system per se but BSD approach to things, BSD rc.d system is too tight to the concept of headless servers used in the BSD world where solaris, QNX, BEos, AIX focused on more generic desktop/server kind of use(they all failed at desktop use tho as BSD did).

but the biggest problem is the lack of features, isolation, tracking and non-deterministic behaviour which are basically the same problem that SySV and equivalents systems(OpenRC, Upstart, etc.) have, so since i'm a developer i really do hate BSD(is clean and cute but too complicated and lack many tools and features) so i prefer to deal in that case with the devil i know SySV

[Isedonde]

I'm actually enjoying watching GNU/Linux become more like an OS X or Windows clone. Sitting from here on the comfy pillar of BSD is fun.

Actually, Linux with systemd is becoming more like a BSD clone with a better kernel.

Just like LibreSSL, OpenSSH, and other tools depend on OpenBSD, now our DNS resolvers, NTP sync daemons, and network config tools depend on systemd. The approach of "put everything into one source repository and call it the base system" is pretty much what most BSDs are about, and now systemd does something similar for a limited selection of basic tools with quite some success and quite some win for the users.

And just like the portability wrapper for LibreSSL, there's systemd-shim as a portability wrapper for parts of systemd (I think logind mostly). :-)

Edit: Oh yeah, in case you want to read up on your BSD skills, see this: https://www.over-yonder.net/~fullerm...s/bsd4linux/03 (It's for Linux users, but maybe you can see that systemd is similar to BSD from that POV.)

[slojam]

I'm ready to move away from systemd at this point. I'm coming from Fedora and openSUSE. Suggestions? BSD? Are there any popular Linux distros left that aren't under RH control?

thanks