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Thread: Builder: A New Development IDE Being Built For GNOME

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbohale View Post
    No idea where the guy who made that post made it, but I disagree with what he's saying. Trying to turn emacs into something it's not (a shiny simple editor that's very mouse oriented like the screenshot) will only cripple Builder and if they have to change emacs at all, cripple that. It has a very different goal for a very different audience, so it should not necessarily be an extension of emacs.
    The Point is I have kind of RMS on my side, that of course makes me not automaticly right, and I maybe overinterprete him a bit, but with the audience the different u mention so only the geeks or something, he doesnt like this idea too.

    Or do u think that all the great code would not get created when dummies use emacs too, and the geeks cant feel so elite anymore?

    http://forums.theregister.co.uk/foru...ld_go_wysiwyg/

    Yes a WYSIWYG IDE or Editor or whatever is not automaticly a gnome-gui-creator, I even not want neccessary a gui designer tool as emacs mode, that can be a special program, but the direction is right.

    And a WYSIWYG Editor does not mean that u cannot use it without gui bars with the right settings and only use shortcuts.

    Its nice to be in a elite group that only u and a few other elite developer could manage the pain to overcome the horrific defaults in emacs, but that should not hinder making it better.

    Whatever my point was, RMS wants not that u only target this "different audience" ONLY. And I think thats right.

    If u think Emacs as a Sub-operation-system, with package manager and tons of software, with functionality like a full Desktop has more or less, audioplayers, jabberclients, wordprocessor, email news-reader, rss-reader, task planner and so on. Why would u target that much software only to a small group.

    Its like somebody would have argued against X or against gnome because somebody says Linux is targeted to geeks or freaks or thinkers.
    Last edited by blackiwid; 08-10-2014 at 09:49 AM.

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackiwid View Post
    The Point is I have kind of RMS on my side, that of course makes me not automaticly right, and I maybe overinterprete him a bit, but with the audience the different u mention so only the geeks or something, he doesnt like this idea too.

    Or do u think that all the great code would not get created when dummies use emacs too, and the geeks cant feel so elite anymore?

    http://forums.theregister.co.uk/foru...ld_go_wysiwyg/

    Yes a WYSIWYG IDE or Editor or whatever is not automaticly a gnome-gui-creator, I even not want neccessary a gui designer tool as emacs mode, that can be a special program, but the direction is right.

    And a WYSIWYG Editor does not mean that u cannot use it without gui bars with the right settings and only use shortcuts.

    Its nice to be in a elite group that only u and a few other elite developer could manage the pain to overcome the horrific defaults in emacs, but that should not hinder making it better.

    Whatever my point was, RMS wants not that u only target this "different audience" ONLY. And I think thats right.

    If u think Emacs as a Sub-operation-system, with package manager and tons of software, with functionality like a full Desktop has more or less, audioplayers, jabberclients, wordprocessor, email news-reader, rss-reader, task planner and so on. Why would u target that much software only to a small group.

    Its like somebody would have argued against X or against gnome because somebody says Linux is targeted to geeks or freaks or thinkers.
    I don't know your point, but I don't really care about what RMS has to say about this. RMS is not about making the best desktop, he is about 'software freedom'. He is not pragmatic, he is religious about it, and we need people like that. But, you shouldn't be basing the desktop decisions that are the reason people are staying away on that person. It's like if Gandhi started talking about which desktop environment everyone should be using, would you listen just because it's Gandhi? I wouldn't. I would take lessons from the massive operating systems that know how to make people WANT to develop for it and use those lessons. Ultimately, I would rather program in Xcode or Qt Creator than deal with emacs. Why? Because I find them easier. I know HOW to use emacs, but I don't like it, and I know there are lots of people like me. It's the reason Linux's desktop is in such a sorry state.

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbohale View Post
    Ultimately, I would rather program in Xcode or Qt Creator than deal with emacs. Why? Because I find them easier. I know HOW to use emacs, but I don't like it, and I know there are lots of people like me. It's the reason Linux's desktop is in such a sorry state.
    Thats the question, u find emacs not easy to use with the default settings right? And with todays gui.

    But that says nothing about how u would relate to a modernised Emacs. Thats my point. And another thing, even if you would not wanted to use it with better defaults and gnome or a better gtk gui, I never said fight against every other ide but emacs, U even mention QT Creator seems to be a somewhat ok easy to learn, but not so good to optimise IDE, why not make that a multi-ui development tool. I just say dont waste your resources to 50 different 0815 IDEs which then not one is even at 1-2% of the features and productivity of emacs, if u cant bear emacs ok, but then u should try to make something that at least in a long persepective come to be a competitor to emacs, and people dont use it just because they cant get over the pain of the 70is keyboards targeted emacs, shortcuts and some other problems (blocking processes...).

    btw if we are talking about desktops... I was forever a big gnome-shell fan, and in my mind I like that project still very much, they did made some right design choices, so I dont want to bash them, but since I use more than 1 monitor I know its nearly unusable, and if u want to be more productive do more actions per minute, its physical fact that u have to use the keyboard u should be able to do all stuff that is somewhat repeatable with shortcuts at least optional and not just any shortcuts but good shortcuts, and stuff should react in somewhat good way. And especialy with 2 monitors u should of course change the output on both seperatly.

    Maybe I missed somewhere a setting but the default in gnome is that u can only switch the workspace of both monitors at the same time but not seperate. Then when u open 2 windows on one monitor/workspace the second goes on top of the first... not even automaticly maximise so u could think of worse defaults.

    They heading in a somewhat good direction, and thanx to gnome-shell I at least got inspired that there could be something other than a windows 95 to windows xp desktop or like gnome 2, thats maybe better.

    But good tiling wms exists since forever, even emacs is one if u want so, so its not always better because its shinier and because of that more used.

    So I have to say like Microsoft now starting using workspaces (in windows 9) shows that microsoft was wrong the 20 years before not using them, it would be extremly easy to implement that, so it was just a WRONG design desition to not have them. Now Gnome 3 as example not uses desktop as a file and folder stash, because it was wrong before too. Except they had the excuse they wanted to be similar to windows to be more easy for switchers, but If that would been their goal they would have chosen some other design desitions also differently.

    I dont want to start now a gnome vs tiling wm flamewar, I just say, pragmatic or not, U dont really think that most people use emacs because they are all fanatics or relicious people? I just say there are people that are more ambicious computer users, they waste hundrets of hours most likely to optimise keyboard schemes, they optimise everything to a state that in some cases its scientificly proofed that its at least more efficient and healthy as example adnw or neo keyboard layout, and I find it just ignorant that everybody means windows guis and ways to do stuff should be copied more or less 1:1 make it a bit shinier and we can win by who has the shiniest gui.

    I have another comparsion, gaming industrie, we get every year 100 grafic demos that look a minimal bit better here and there, but is really the grafics the most important factor in a game to have fun?

    Ok my comparsions stredge a bit far, but u have enough to pick from.

  4. #74
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    EDIT:

    just to be clear, every Individual has the right to choose how he invest/waste their time, but gnome is a project a organisation, they should make wiser desitions. And not invest even money in such resourcewaste projects, and target something more effective like making qt creator a big linux ide or something.

    Just my 2 cents... of course nobody hears at me.

    And yes if ghandy would be still alive and he says something about computers I would at least listen to his words I of course then not blindly follow what he says, but I consider it, and if dont care about freedom like rms wants it why not switching to freebsd? bsd lisense is for people that are only pragmatic and see freedom of choice as the freedom like It seems u do.

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackiwid View Post
    Thats the question, u find emacs not easy to use with the default settings right? And with todays gui.

    But that says nothing about how u would relate to a modernised Emacs. Thats my point. And another thing, even if you would not wanted to use it with better defaults and gnome or a better gtk gui, I never said fight against every other ide but emacs, U even mention QT Creator seems to be a somewhat ok easy to learn, but not so good to optimise IDE, why not make that a multi-ui development tool. I just say dont waste your resources to 50 different 0815 IDEs which then not one is even at 1-2% of the features and productivity of emacs, if u cant bear emacs ok, but then u should try to make something that at least in a long persepective come to be a competitor to emacs, and people dont use it just because they cant get over the pain of the 70is keyboards targeted emacs, shortcuts and some other problems (blocking processes...).

    btw if we are talking about desktops... I was forever a big gnome-shell fan, and in my mind I like that project still very much, they did made some right design choices, so I dont want to bash them, but since I use more than 1 monitor I know its nearly unusable, and if u want to be more productive do more actions per minute, its physical fact that u have to use the keyboard u should be able to do all stuff that is somewhat repeatable with shortcuts at least optional and not just any shortcuts but good shortcuts, and stuff should react in somewhat good way. And especialy with 2 monitors u should of course change the output on both seperatly.

    Maybe I missed somewhere a setting but the default in gnome is that u can only switch the workspace of both monitors at the same time but not seperate. Then when u open 2 windows on one monitor/workspace the second goes on top of the first... not even automaticly maximise so u could think of worse defaults.

    They heading in a somewhat good direction, and thanx to gnome-shell I at least got inspired that there could be something other than a windows 95 to windows xp desktop or like gnome 2, thats maybe better.

    But good tiling wms exists since forever, even emacs is one if u want so, so its not always better because its shinier and because of that more used.

    So I have to say like Microsoft now starting using workspaces (in windows 9) shows that microsoft was wrong the 20 years before not using them, it would be extremly easy to implement that, so it was just a WRONG design desition to not have them. Now Gnome 3 as example not uses desktop as a file and folder stash, because it was wrong before too. Except they had the excuse they wanted to be similar to windows to be more easy for switchers, but If that would been their goal they would have chosen some other design desitions also differently.

    I dont want to start now a gnome vs tiling wm flamewar, I just say, pragmatic or not, U dont really think that most people use emacs because they are all fanatics or relicious people? I just say there are people that are more ambicious computer users, they waste hundrets of hours most likely to optimise keyboard schemes, they optimise everything to a state that in some cases its scientificly proofed that its at least more efficient and healthy as example adnw or neo keyboard layout, and I find it just ignorant that everybody means windows guis and ways to do stuff should be copied more or less 1:1 make it a bit shinier and we can win by who has the shiniest gui.

    I have another comparsion, gaming industrie, we get every year 100 grafic demos that look a minimal bit better here and there, but is really the grafics the most important factor in a game to have fun?

    Ok my comparsions stredge a bit far, but u have enough to pick from.
    Why try to modernize something that was specialized for the 1990s? Builder has completely different goals and trying to make something completely unrelated modern rather than just starting over which is 1001309832x easier is not a good idea. You can't just take projects and try to make them things they are not. Emacs is not and never will be a modern pretty all-the-features-minimalists-hate IDE with all kinds of cool features. Something with a lot less lines of code that doesn't have to deal with the whale would do the job quite nicely.

    It doesn't interfere with Emacs, and it's specialized for GNOME. Who cares? Stop trying to hold other people down because your panties are in a bunch.

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbohale View Post
    Why try to modernize something that was specialized for the 1990s? Builder has completely different goals and trying to make something completely unrelated modern rather than just starting over which is 1001309832x easier is not a good idea. You can't just take projects and try to make them things they are not. Emacs is not and never will be a modern pretty all-the-features-minimalists-hate IDE with all kinds of cool features. Something with a lot less lines of code that doesn't have to deal with the whale would do the job quite nicely.

    It doesn't interfere with Emacs, and it's specialized for GNOME. Who cares? Stop trying to hold other people down because your panties are in a bunch.
    What? U insult me because I have a different opinion than u?

    U cant read what I wrote but u are able to insult me, nice.

    Its nice if people pick a half sentense from a big statement and insults him on this sentence. I WROTE that ONE solution would be to make emacs better, but ANOTHER if taht really does not fit your demands would be to make something more similar better like QT Builder.

    It just makes no sense to have 10 halfbacked solution which then all sucks. Thats all my point, u are free and the developer of this gnome builder too is free to ignore what I am saying and YOU dont have to piss yourself because I give u my opinion and perspective of doing that.

    If u really have good reasons to do so or the author have that, he either could tell me here or u or not and do it. I am not here with a weapon threaten u that I shoot u if u dont do what I suggest.

    But I have the right to say my oppionion without getting insulted.

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackiwid View Post
    What? U insult me because I have a different opinion than u?

    U cant read what I wrote but u are able to insult me, nice.

    Its nice if people pick a half sentense from a big statement and insults him on this sentence. I WROTE that ONE solution would be to make emacs better, but ANOTHER if taht really does not fit your demands would be to make something more similar better like QT Builder.

    It just makes no sense to have 10 halfbacked solution which then all sucks. Thats all my point, u are free and the developer of this gnome builder too is free to ignore what I am saying and YOU dont have to piss yourself because I give u my opinion and perspective of doing that.

    If u really have good reasons to do so or the author have that, he either could tell me here or u or not and do it. I am not here with a weapon threaten u that I shoot u if u dont do what I suggest.

    But I have the right to say my oppionion without getting insulted.
    Panties in a bunch is not an insult. That is a 'why are you getting worked up?' sort of thing, and that was not directed at you. It was directed at the people who are crying foul of this. Either way, yes Emacs could technically be a "solution" but it would never be as native to GNOME as it should be. People overestimate the difficulty of writing an editor. If they wrote it in pure C it would probably be irritating, but it's likely written in Vala or something higher-level, which to some is not good but that's perfectly fine with me. IntelliJ IDEA is by and large the best Java IDE for me, everything from it's autocomplete which is instant and saves me a lot of typing to it's excellent refactoring support, and best of all it's written in a high-level language so it can definitely be done.

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