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Thread: X.Org Server 1.16 Delayed To Let In Non-PCI Graphics Support

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by dungeon View Post
    Oh, i know what is tearing, that is something people fighting last 90 years, and no one beat it complitely without some downsides .
    Such as?
    Wayland provide "forced solution" for that problem, that does not mean X can't have some solution to prevent tearing .
    The solution is forced only by the fact that it's the solution and not a ugly workaround.
    And which known dowsides that solution has?
    Pixel perfect screen, can you image anything more terrible? Even now there are smartphone with an equal amount of RAM compared to my laptop, so the downside seems to be simple irrelevant.
    Wayland force users to use compositor, xserver does not .
    Yeah, and a kernel force users to have some hardware, the absence of the kernel does not
    Some people have issues looking at anything which is composited, so Wayland is not something which magically "God send to as" .
    I have no idea what you mean here.
    An image can be composed by pixel coming from different source or as a part of a single source, but at the end it's an image sent to the screen. Y frame for each second, but still they are images sent to the screen. What kind of differences the people see (or think to see) between a composited screen vs a not composited one?
    It is just software (althorough with good ideas), but nowhere near finished nor so widely supported and it is nowhere near robustness of X, which is this article all about .
    The problem is not if it is software or an alien object, the problem is if it is good or not for its tasks.
    About the "finished" and "supported" points, the things can change pretty much in just 6 months, we will see.
    About the robustness, and I add the security, a slim protocol is better to fix and maintain rather than a giant mess like X.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by dungeon View Post
    Yeah linux have everything optional, that is one of the strongest point for linux which *some* people think is the weakest point i know that too.
    Well, this is the weakest point of linux, that is why linux will never be a full operating system, that is why you need a full team to develop the whole os - then you can do anything you want, you can integrate things to work perfectly, like windows - no one has ever saw tearing or anything like that since xp, and it runs perfectly with shitload of effects even on low quality 10 years old intel integrated graphics.

  3. #23
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    let me clear some details that people got very wrong here:

    1.) Wayland is tear free by design by default but can be overridden by the client but in X11 server is factually impossible without breaking the X11 protocol (said by Xorg developers not me)

    2.) you can test today with MPV(best wayland support video player) and weston, no matter what you do it won't tear regardless the video

    3.) composite don't mean UI effects or anything related to it, it just a nice after effect because you can use OpenGL to draw instead of the horrid XRender API for nice effects(in X11 case)

    A global compositor(weston, mutter, kwin, etc) is a system that control how the buffered surfaces go over the screen, for example:

    * hey compositor put as screen root background this PNG file and on top of that image remember to show the buffer of application MyApp that it rendered correctly, ohh and before i forget buffer ID=XXXXXX which belong to MyApp2 is requesting to be shown without changes at position X,Y and wait wait i received an input event type mouse click on the area of buffer ID=YYYYYY please proxy it to MyWidget1 and wait for response and go on.

    A Local compositor is an internal application system designed by the application developer to control the render process(this one is optional), for example if you are developing a tetris like game you can use a local compositor to do no-op rendering, just upload all your textures once and design a compositor that reference the memory location of each texture and just move them inside the GPU memory instead of actually re upload and redraw the same objects each frame with regular OpenGL (lot harder than it sounds, just as an example)

    Now all that eye candy you love or hate was never in the examples because is not part of the compositing process but thanks to the compositing process you can apply post processing the actual buffers before the frame are swapped. To make it easy to imagine lets say in composite each window is like a photoshop layer that you can edit without modifying the layer below(aka you can add effects and stuff without damage the whole image) and non composite is like draw pixels with paint and swap to screen is like flatten an photoshop multilayer into a JPG

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by startzz View Post
    Well, this is the weakest point of linux, that is why linux will never be a full operating system, that is why you need a full team to develop the whole os - then you can do anything you want, you can integrate things to work perfectly, like windows - no one has ever saw tearing or anything like that since xp, and it runs perfectly with shitload of effects even on low quality 10 years old intel integrated graphics.
    Why don't you use Windows then if it is so good, does it have some other problems . If i just little search around about tearing in Windows, i can found plenty of tearing complains - their Hummingbird is not automagicaly tear free too .

    It is "lucky" of course for driver developers because most of Windows users use one wm (most of them don't even know something other can exist ) so drivers can easely prevent most of the tipical cases, but of course not all .

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by startzz View Post
    Well, this is the weakest point of linux, that is why linux will never be a full operating system,
    It will never be a full operating system? Like all the Windows servers that run the Internet or all the Windows clusters used for HPC or all the Windows phones? Oh, wait, Windows marketshare is negligible when it comes to such things, but Linux is running them all. If you mean an operating system for the desktop, what exactly are you missing in an desktop installation of Mint, Ubuntu or openSuse?
    that is why you need a full team to develop the whole os - then you can do anything you want, you can integrate things to work perfectly, like windows
    Are you implying that Windows is not developed by a whole team? What is it then, a one man show?

    Man, the quality of your trolling gets worse over time, as it seems. I guess you are only here because it is not good enough anymore for other forums. Somehow Phoronix seems to attract low quality trolls. Maybe the lack of moderation?
    Last edited by Vim_User; 07-08-2014 at 11:24 AM.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vim_User View Post
    I guess you are only here because it is not good enough anymore for other forums. Somehow Phoronix seems to attract low quality trolls. Maybe the lack of moderation?
    Yup instead of having more people who wants to try to port apps for Wayland (just to see how hard and time consuming that is) we have more and more trolls . Viva la X .

    I came to think Windows trolls coming here to broke Desktop Linux just because with ideas with that "magical" Wayland which have tear-free by design, but if it cause more jitter (and i can bet that is the case) no gaming users will like that . Now is there solution for that - tear-free together with jitter-free So long, viva la X .

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by dungeon View Post
    There are very much different people, for example i have friend which is 25 years ophthalmolog, and with compiz she says "oh what is this, do not look at that - it is not easy on eyes" . Then i go to X and openbox she says "no, not good"... then i turn off compton and she says: "oh, that is much much better, do not ever turn on that thing again" . So

    Bloody true story, some people just don't like it . Besides, she very much does not like most of the fonts too, that is usual story for different people to not like someting .
    Compositing!=effects

    I have the compositor enabled in my XFCE installation yet all effects disabled, because I don't want those. (The only thing that "makes use" of compositing is the terminal background being alpha-blended ...)
    Likewise you can create a Wayland compositor without wobbly windows or window shadows.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrystalGamma View Post
    Compositing!=effects
    Ah i know that, i am X user for so many years, years before first composition provider named XGL introduced (which is only working under fglrx for radeon cards) and then AIGLX for which i was waiting for GLX_EXT_texture_from_pixmap support... .

    Composition in X for me is anything which use AIGLX.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIGLX

    Disable that in xorg.conf and than see what effects you can get .
    Last edited by dungeon; 07-08-2014 at 12:35 PM.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by dungeon View Post
    Why don't you use Windows then if it is so good, does it have some other problems . If i just little search around about tearing in Windows, i can found plenty of tearing complains - their Hummingbird is not automagicaly tear free too .

    It is "lucky" of course for driver developers because most of Windows users use one wm (most of them don't even know something other can exist ) so drivers can easely prevent most of the tipical cases, but of course not all .
    And i am using windows 7, who said i'm not ? And there are many "talented" people out there, who can break any system with just one touch And yes, one wm -> one company -> one os, thats the power linux doesnt have, linux brought this on its own - a bunch of guys making random stuff, all their cooperation is in linus style "fk you nvidia", so what do you expect from such guys... Of course, the whole programming thing is not what it should be - it should be perfect, like science, like 2+2=4, but somehow people made it like art - no one knows why it works or why doesnt work, so yeah, the whole conception of ~60's must be burned and everything must be done in the right way from zero, because this technology wont lead to anything "wow", especially this "free cheese".

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by dungeon View Post
    Composition in X for me is anything which use AIGLX.
    AIGLX is just accelerated indirect rendering, it has nothing to do with compositing actually. Not directly. It can be used by X compositors, but there are other methods, like xrender and GL direct rendering. It was used by open drivers because redirected direct rendering, required for composition, was only available with the Nvidia blob. Then came DRI2, which provided redirected direct rendering for open drivers, so now AIGLX isn't being used anymore.

    And, as was already said, compositing doesn't mean effects! It makes effects possible, but that doesn't mean you *have* to have wobbly windows. Compositing simply means that stuff is redirected offscreen and is then assembled by the compositor for display. The compositor can apply transformations during this process, which is how you get effects, but that doesn't mean it must.

    Quote Originally Posted by dungeon View Post
    Disable that in xorg.conf and than see what effects you can get .
    Each and every one of them, provided the compositor supports direct rendering or xrender, which all of them do. AIGLX isn't compositing, it's just one possible way a compositor can work.

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