Using Udev Without Systemd Is Going To Become Harder

[Ericg]

Exactly. I actually like Lennart, and we are in good terms. I'm not happy that this particular thread post was referenced in this Phoronix post in this way, because it doesn't give
an accurate picture of what is really going on.
I wouldn't mind systemd becoming the Gentoo default, as I see systemd becoming the norm in Linux userspace, but that hasn't happened yet, and migration will need time.
So, with all the best in mind, for everyone, for everything, I was only expressing that I'd like udev from systemd tree be usable without *an running systemd instance*
for longer time, so users don't get too dramatical change too fast.

I don't have anything to add. I just wanted to make sure this post doesn't get drowned out by the trolls and the mob, to ensure it gets the attention it needs to.

[gens]

is not dbus but KDBUS and netlink is not especially secure or efficient for user space information exchange in the way dbus use it but i guess it kinda was good enough, check the code it will come to you eventually

how is netlink not secure ?

dbus is way more complicated then netlink, and netlink can be waaaaaay faster then even kdbus
so what are you talking about, what code
would you mind pointing me to that code ?

PS i was talking about dbus as a protocol, it is called that

[Ibidem]

KDBUS...Didn't Linus specifically mention that when he blacklisted Kay Seivers?

To all the people saying "Linux is not about choice": Have you built a working kernel by running

make config

yet?

[gens]

anyway
i checked what this is about

long story short, it doesn't matter
thanks to linus not being as dumb as kay the kernel already is the one that loads firmware
also thanks to kernel devs not being as dumb as kay the kernel exposes devices over a virtual fs
so this is only about userspace udev, and that is not something complicated

whatever the case, the kernel does not break backwards compatibility so older udev (or a fork) will work fine
it's just drama involving a drama queen

only thing this brings is more work to gentoo devs (and nothing else, and nothing "better" for systemd systems)

[rob11311]

To add to this insight, sometimes it's not what you say but how you say it. Lennart has a way of things in ways in the larger Linux community that tend to place him in a negative light.

It's the rush into things and the lack of consideration for needs of other requirements.
The problem is, NOONE can have all ecompassing vision, Linus gets that.. but Lennart seems to need to learn that.

Anyway.. Kay Sievers is being `babysat` by Greg Kroah Hartman after a recent systemd fiasco, which inconvenienced Kernel Developers, and Kay got a real LART-ing from Linus himself, so Kdbus is liable to come under serious scrutiny and review. Without better diplomacy, they may find the experience quite enlightening as the boot will be on Kernel Hackers foot.

[rob11311]

KDBUS...Didn't Linus specifically mention that when he blacklisted Kay Seivers?

Kay, got told to "fix his bugs" by Linus and warned he'd have no patches accepted if he continued to act like a prima donna. Greg Kroah Hartman was warned not to make any assumptions about inclusion of kdbus, and asked to baby sit.

[bkor]

KDBUS...Didn't Linus specifically mention that when he blacklisted Kay Seivers?

To all the people saying "Linux is not about choice": Have you built a working kernel by running

make config

yet?

I have loads and loads of times. Linux is not about choice. You have choice in e.g. linux kernel, that's what you shown. Now prove that Linux is _about_ choice. Huge difference! Saying Linux is about choice means that choice is a goal in itself. It's not.

[bkor]

Anyway.. Kay Sievers is being `babysat` by Greg Kroah Hartman after a recent systemd fiasco, which inconvenienced Kernel Developers, and Kay got a real LART-ing from Linus himself, so Kdbus is liable to come under serious scrutiny and review. Without better diplomacy, they may find the experience quite enlightening as the boot will be on Kernel Hackers foot.

What a inaccuracies in one post. Kay isn't writing kdbus. Kdbus is written by Greg. Kdbus will now use other infrastructure not written by systemd people. Kdbus being reviewed is totally normal and is a good thing. You're pretending it is bad code being pushed without anyone looking. Nice usage of Fear there!

[erendorn]

Modular makes maintenance harder, not easier. Many different ways to do things increases complexity, it doesn't suddenly work better.

Regarding your example: Take a big poster, break it down into lots of small pieces. Try and put that together. Now try to break another poster (same size), break it into 9 pieces. Which is easier to combine?

Completely off topic, but I disagree.
Modular makes designing and building harder, but maintenance easier.

That's obvious in the very example you choose: It is indeed harder to assemble a poster of 90 pieces than a poster of 9. But that is not maintenance, it's building. On the other hand, if you have to redraw a piece, it's obviously easier to redraw a piece that is 10 times smaller.

[bison]

I see Linux experiencing a severe fracture within the next 5-10 years, something far worse than Android initially was.

Well, maybe, but I think it's too early to tell. If only a few people strongly object to the udev-systemd lock-in, then they will probably move to one of the BSDs and the furor will subside. If Slackware or some other small-but-not-tiny distro holds out, then things could be more interesting.