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Thread: Skype 4.3 For Linux Released With Updated UI

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbohale View Post
    What? You agree that we should have a sound system that sucks ass? The only solution is to put PulseAudio into the kernel (I don't mean that literally, I mean something functionally equivalent). That said, ANY modern system can handle copying less than a kilobyte of data and converting from float to and from int within a millisecond (assuming what he said is true), so that argument is moot.
    it's almost 20kB/s for 16bit 48khz stereo
    plus a copy since you can't do it in place

    i was wrong, it is converted in PA
    so a copy from program then convert in PA

    then comes the cpu intensive part that is maths (il ignore cache trashing since everything trashes cache these days)
    per sample it goes, i guess, around 30-60 multiplications and adds
    there comes the cpu usage since a multiply for a float is much slower then for an int (add is also slower ofc)
    and there is no sse loop for that in "secret rabbit code" so it's all scalar (have not found any in pa either)
    also no, gcc does not optimize it into "vectors" (llvm may, idk)
    http://www.agner.org/optimize/instruction_tables.pdf if you are interested in how much overhead is that


    the floating point in DSP... trend i guess is for another reason, and in my opinion bollocks
    people compare a single precision float filter to a 16bit int filter, and ofc the float wins (not by much, nothing you can hear and most of the time even measure)
    if they compared it to 32bit integers it would be a different story, one in which int's would win since they have 2^32 precision while floats have... it's complicated


    and the whole "modern hardware is so fast" argument is also a load of balls
    i have a... idk around 1GHz celeron laptop and 10% cpu usage on it really matters


    also there is a good enough sound system in the kernel, OSSv4

    also i started a userspace sound server a while ago that may or may not be finished some sunny day
    and guess what, no configuration required since it will always play at the highest sampling rate of all the apps using it, dynamically, and the rest will be upsampled
    all that with 16.16 bits fixed point integer calculations (so 32bit precision)
    should be waaaaaaaay faster then fkin floats with the same, if not better, precision
    another thing that wont be a problem is a graphical equalizer since it is practically a required step when resampling (earphone mode too kinda, room speaker placement, etc)
    that is what all semi decent windows sound card drivers have been doing for years now, and kids yell "PA is advanced!"

    http://www.dspguru.com/dsp/faqs/multirate/resampling is how it is done
    and https://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jos/resample/resample.html for more precise theory

    good about PA is that they reported bugs when making/maintaining it
    and for the couple people with special needs that don't have the knowledge or patience to do it themselves


    PS phoronix edit's last for ~30sec for me, even thou it says 5min

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by gens View Post
    it's almost 20kB/s for 16bit 48khz stereo
    it's 187 kB/s
    (2channels*2bytes*48000samples/1024)

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbernardo View Post
    What an interesting declaration. Such an attitude. Have you left kindergarten yet?
    As for your "100% wrong", do you have any facts to enforce your theory? I can assure you that every time a friend of mine has sound problems on linux (Suse, ubuntu, arch, whatever) the easiest and fastest solution is to remove pulseaudio. Sometimes there is need for a quick configuration in alsa to change the order of the audio cards, but besides that the sound problems (lag, stuttering, etc.) disappear as by miracle just by removing pulseaudio.

    Of course, for you playing a youtube video in firefox might be "mess with it and fuck it up".

    And I still have to understand what is a real distribution. I guess "linux from scratch" doesn't count, but does arch count? Suse? Debian? Kubuntu? Gentoo?

    I particularly love how you write "DON'T try to tinker with it". So now linux should be something like windows, that users aren't allowed to tinker with because it might break the unstable crap that has been added in the last couple of years?

    You're part of the problem, please stop wasting oxygen. Thank you.

    PS: there is an edit button. If you want to change milliseconds to nanoseconds, you don't need to quote a full post. But perhaps editing a post, when done by someone who doesn't know what he is doing, would be to "mess with it and fuck it up".
    Edit button went away after 5 minutes.

    No, LFS is not a properly packaged distribution. If you happen to do it correctly, then yes it is, but until it's packaged correctly it's not. Most users do not want to have to mess with their computers, hence why Windows and OS X are so big (they require some tinkering but not of the same difficulty), and why Linux is so small on desktops. When I say don't try to tinker with it, I mean don't expect it to work if you tinker with it. Obviously you can, it's open source, but expect it to break and if it doesn't, good for you. I have met nobody within the past year that has had PulseAudio problems, and myself when I used Linux was one of those people. It was literally one of the things that drove me to Linux, just how good it was and how well it worked without any tinkering whatsoever. I will likely go back to Linux once Wayland is released. NVIDIA driver, PulseAudio (likely Arch Linux), systemd, the whole 9 yards. Will I use it for my everyday tasks including development? Yes. Will I tinker with it at all? Nope. I'll write some systemd conf's but that's the extent of it. Everything else I expect will work perfectly, and if history is any indication of how it will work, it will work fine.

    That said, it's the idiots that suggest removing PulseAudio that just confuse me. It's literally one of the driving features for Windows and Mac users, an audio system that requires zero tinkering when used with Ubuntu or Kubuntu (NOW, not 3-4 years ago). Wayland is nice but it's not necessarily a driving force, and the same with systemd.

  4. #74
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    As far as I've read, MS is going to block access to the Skype Services for older versions of Skype, at least that's what they're planning to do on Windows and Mac, according to german newssite Heise.de. Even if Linux is not directly mentioned, I don't believe it will be any different for us, since MS ist trying to unify MS and Skype Accounts. I personally don't have any problems with pulseaudio, it makes a lot of my tasks easier and works well for me since years, so i don't mind the removal of alsa support. For me as a heavy desktop user and "terminal window collector" everything is fine and dandy, either way.

  5. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibbelharry View Post
    As far as I've read, MS is going to block access to the Skype Services for older versions of Skype, at least that's what they're planning to do on Windows and Mac, according to german newssite Heise.de. Even if Linux is not directly mentioned, I don't believe it will be any different for us, since MS ist trying to unify MS and Skype Accounts. I personally don't have any problems with pulseaudio, it makes a lot of my tasks easier and works well for me since years, so i don't mind the removal of alsa support. For me as a heavy desktop user and "terminal window collector" everything is fine and dandy, either way.
    In that case, I guess I'll have to see if I can get Windows Skype running inside Wine or VirtualBox+WinXP in case I'm not finish ditching it (and MSN Messenger via Pidgin too, I'm guessing) by the cut-off.

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbernardo View Post
    I particularly love how you write "DON'T try to tinker with it". So now linux should be something like windows, that users aren't allowed to tinker with because it might break the unstable crap that has been added in the last couple of years?
    Oh, you are free to tinker to your hearts content, but nobody gives a guarantee that everything will work after your tinkering. It's even written so in the license ;-). So the bottom line is - the distros are packaged in a certain way, that the people who did the packaging felt right. If you want to change that, it means you know what you are doing and you can handle any breakages, by tweaking the configs or even patching the source code if needed. The message is clear - if you have the proper skills then do as you please.

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbohale View Post
    Edit button went away after 5 minutes.
    Sorry about that, my fault.
    Quote Originally Posted by jimbohale View Post
    No, LFS is not a properly packaged distribution. If you happen to do it correctly, then yes it is, but until it's packaged correctly it's not.
    That is why I stated that for you LFS wasn't probably a proper distribution.
    Quote Originally Posted by jimbohale View Post
    [...]That said, it's the idiots that suggest removing PulseAudio that just confuse me. It's literally one of the driving features for Windows and Mac users, an audio system that requires zero tinkering when used with Ubuntu or Kubuntu (NOW, not 3-4 years ago). Wayland is nice but it's not necessarily a driving force, and the same with systemd.
    For me, its the idiots that think that Linux must attract Windows and Mac users no matter what, even if it means alienating those who prefer Linux and the Unix way of work (small, independent, easily replaceable apps instead of monolithical fuck-ups) that upset me.
    There was a saying in the 90s that if you built a fool-proof OS only fools would like to use it. Seems like a few are driving Linux from a powerful, power user oriented OS to a dumbed down, fool-proof OS, that only windows/mac users will want to use.
    With windows whenever I had one issue (unsupported hardware, crashing stuff, etc.) I always depended on the vendor to solve it if they felt like it. With Linux, usually it was just a question of replacing some app with an alternative, or in extreme cases patching and fixing the code directly. Now? With systemd it is almost impossible to replace it with an alternative. With pulseaudio it isn't like that right now because it was so bad at start that everyone needed to replace it. And for older machines it still adds so much latency that it is best to remove it, independently of your opinion. But that is what the pulseaudio, systemd advocates don't get. There is no "one true way". Power users don't want to be tied to a huge behemoth that tries to do too much, and that is so tied to your system that can't be easily taken out and replaced. It doesn't matter that for 90% of the use cases it works. It is not a desirable solution if it doesn't work for some, and can't be quickly replaced. And dumbing down a power user system to attract windows users will only scare away power users.
    Oh well, maybe it is time to move to BSD (even if I prefer the GPL license). It seems like the "dumb it down" crowd is in the majority now.

  8. #78
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    In that case, I guess I'll have to see if I can get Windows Skype running inside Wine or VirtualBox+WinXP in case I'm not finish ditching it (and MSN Messenger via Pidgin too, I'm guessing) by the cut-off.
    Windows XP in Virtualbox will be no option. The current versions of Skype don't work in XP, and the older versions will be blocked, so Skype and XP will be a nogo in the future.

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