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What GNOME's Women Outreach Program Is Paying For This Summer

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  • #91
    Originally posted by omer666 View Post
    The simple fact that people feel the need to rage on this program plainly shows its interest. They're not ready to see any change in that respect, and as such, they take it as an aggression, thus explaining the particular tone of those comments. I mean if women are already equal to men, why are you upset? You state that money is wasted, but in fact, it is not. Programmers are being paid for their job, that's all I see. The only possible reason to see it as a waste is the fact that it deals with women, or else, I don't see your point. "Don't employ any women, because we're already equal"...
    I'm going to leave the thread after this, because this "discussion" isn't really a "discussion" anymore... but anyway:
    1. Most of the work being done isn't even programming, as has been pointed out. Not that it matters, I'm just saying.
    2. How the hell can I sit here and say "women are equal to men in FOSS" if, right here, out in the open, Women are being paid to do stuff that men have to do for free? It's a stupid program that is only designed to "bait" women who were previously uninterested in the Gnome project to work for them for money. Granted, this is a perfectly okay strategy (usually called "bounties") but why aren't men involved? Why can't they just have a general "Outreach Program" that aims to bring in ALL genders?

    Lastly, why the hell do we "need" women in FOSS or Tech in general? I don't see people's obsession with forcing women into the industry simply to balance out the statistics. If a woman wants to join, sweet! Welcome her with open arms, punish the assholes who treat her bad (like the stuff in those stories) and go on with work as usual.
    If only 30% of women are interested in tech enough to try out for a job, while 50% of men are (assuming a 50/50 split in genders), there's going to be more men than women. It's that simple. Making the workplace nicer for women is one thing, falling over ourselves to make them feel special just to get them "interested in Tech/FOSS" is quite another.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by Daktyl198 View Post
      falling over ourselves
      This is this very statement that I question.

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      • #93
        Originally posted by Daktyl198 View Post
        Women are being paid to do stuff that men have to do for free?
        Nobody has to work on GNOME, free or otherwise.

        Originally posted by Daktyl198 View Post
        Why can't they just have a general "Outreach Program" that aims to bring in ALL genders?
        As mentioned earlier, GNOME participates in many outreach programs, each using different criteria to identify the target group they are reaching out to.
        Some use age (e.g. Google Code-In), some use profession (e.g. students in Google Summer of Code).

        There might be GNOME contributors who participate in national programs that use citizenship as a common criteria.

        Cheers,
        _

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Daktyl198 View Post
          Why can't they just have a general "Outreach Program" that aims to bring in ALL genders?
          Because it is silly to reach out to groups that are already the majority of your community?
          If you, in your FOSS project, want to make a gender neutral outreach program, then go ahead.

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          • #95
            Originally posted by 89c51 View Post
            A talented person with interest in a field will just submit patches. They just have to be correct. Everything else is just bullshit.
            Emphasis mine.
            While it is difficult to make a an untalented person suddenly talented, interest is something that can be changed pretty easily.
            There are many different efforts that are made to get talented persons interested in programming, starting from just paying people to being present on campus.
            "Women" happens to be a group with approximately as much talented persons in proportion as the general population, but with overall lower interest (for many reasons that are not necessarily relevant for the point I am making here).
            Thus, it is an ideal target for communication programs to raise interest among them. You know, "outreach" programs.
            It is not about equality or whatnot. It is about not missing out potentially talented people.

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            • #96
              Originally posted by RahulSundaram View Post
              It may not imply anything to you but you did use "he" and you can avoid this problem by consistently using gender neutral pronouns.
              You can also take your political correctness and blow it out your self-righteous ass. Using gender neutral pronouns isn't going to make women any safer at open source conventions; that requires entities like your employer and the wider open source community adopting zero tolerance policies towards these offenses.

              Good luck with that.

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              • #97
                Originally posted by F i L View Post
                No it isn't. It's always on the person making the claim,
                Correct, so the people claiming that there is any biological effect at work have the burden to demonstrate that. So far, nobody has, including the people who have asserted that biology is the only or the predominate cause. They just say "men and women are different", and then assume that those differences have an effect on the current issue. But it is a totally unfounded assumption.

                Originally posted by F i L View Post
                and in this case that claim not some offshoot of your strawman, it's "we need more women in IT because ...". I don't work for Cosmopolitan, and that may be due to both biological and cultural reasons, but at the end of the day that makes little difference because we don't need a equal ratio of men-to-women working in the magazine industry to get shit done. Same with IT. No, especially IT.
                Talk about strawmen. Where have I ever claimed that there should be an equal number of men and women? My only claim is that there is a pool of talented potential contributors that are not contributing as much as they could.

                Originally posted by F i L View Post
                it's on you to demonstrate that is in fact THE reason.
                Where have I ever claimed that? I have claimed that it is definitely a reason, and that it is a reason we can address and improve. There might be other reasons, but so far all the people claiming that biology is the reason have provided zero evidence that this is case.

                Originally posted by F i L View Post
                Meaning you have to find (recent) cases of sexism which have blocked a woman from progressing in IT (at educational and entry job levels), which don't have an equal or comparable case which have blocked a man in IT. Then you have to demonstrate how such situations either don't happen in gender-equal industries, or how they're dealt with in a manor which allows for the equality in contrast to how they're dealt with in IT.
                Or I could do what I have already done in the other thread, and provided evidence that women are judged less than men, all other things being equal.

                Originally posted by F i L View Post
                What I find that IS sexist though, often from people making your arguments, is the idea that women are either not smart enough to understand that basic group dynamic (which applies to more than gender differences), or are incapable of dealing with it, and that THAT fact alone is why million of girls aren't flooding to IT right now like boys are.
                Right, things are how they are, no need to actually do anything to improve the situation.

                Originally posted by F i L View Post
                What bugs me is when people start blaming the majority, based off flimsy evidence, so much that it's almost an insult to the very group they're trying to help, while simultaneously guilt-tripping everyone else for issues we're not responsible for.
                I am an empiricist. There are real, verified problems. I think it is a good idea to fix those problems. I don't claim that those are the only factors at work, only that we should fix the problems we can fix. You can invent all the strawman arguments about me you want, but at the end of the day that is my real position.

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by kigurai View Post
                  If you, in your FOSS project, want to make a gender neutral outreach program, then go ahead.
                  We already have those (GSOC, for example).

                  And if you compare the number of GSOC projects vs. the OPW projects, you can see that gender-neutral outreach programs are the norm rather than the exception.

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by yogi_berra View Post
                    Using gender neutral pronouns isn't going to make women any safer at open source conventions; that requires entities like your employer and the wider open source community adopting zero tolerance policies towards these offenses.

                    Good luck with that.
                    Not true. You don't need zero tolerance to have a code of conduct and set the expectations and removing gender bias from our language to the extend we can, does help and is already done in many places. So no luck needed.

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                    • Originally posted by RahulSundaram View Post
                      Not true. You don't need zero tolerance to have a code of conduct and set the expectations and removing gender bias from our language to the extend we can, does help and is already done in many places. So no luck needed.
                      This gendercancer is starting to destroy the German language already. Texts start to look awe-full and are unreadable. Worrying about these kind of things is the best sign of a decadent society. That (some) women think that the generic-masculine is causing discrimination and suppression makes me truly speechless. Western Politics aren't influenced by rational thoughts or by the majority, but by the few twittering left-winged people who shout and CRY the loudest.
                      I truly envy the Russians. They had useful emancipation even before WW2.
                      Last edited by RocketR?pel; 12 May 2014, 12:25 PM.

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