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Oracle Finally Releases Java 8

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Rich Oliver View Post
    For now the JVM is the lesser evil. Scala is a far superior language to either Java or C#. It runs on the JVM. If we can continue to ramp up the adoption of Scala then we can get the resources and person power to build our own Virtual Machine /native compilation, targeted at Linux free of Oracle's control..
    You assume it is only Microsoft vs Oracle. I argue that Mono is outside of direct influence of MS. Granted, they try to copy all the stuff MS does but they also do innovative things like Ahead-Of-Time compilation and arguably they became more portable than JVM ever was. It is a piece of cake to compile Mono on any random ARM boards and AOT allows you to compile it to Objective-C and heck, through LLVM you could probably run Mono on any JavaScript engine.

    If you do not agree with my previous point then if it was Sun instead of Oracle perhaps I could agree with you on the lesser evil part but in my opinion Oracle is as evil as Microsoft is (some would argue that all corporations are evil but I would answer that some managements are more evil than others). So between Java and .NET it's two evil corporations and two major technology stacks which they control. A draw?

    As for languages of choice, I heard lots of nice things about Scala but then I heard a lot of nice things about F#. F# as actually created initially on Mono and its creators postulate to not marginalize Mono. Let's talk about technology stacks because languages could obviously be implemented with different back-ends.

    That said ... I personally think Mono could do much better by itself if it freed itself from Microsoft completely.

    My final point is that Mono is a nice open piece of technology by itself and Java that everybody uses is a buggy insecure piece of blob. How to run Minecraft on any open source Java tech?

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    • #17
      Originally posted by RushPL View Post
      It is deeply ironic how you all rush to install Oracle's binary blobs and yet bash open source Mono in different threads. Shame.
      I have explained a quite logical basis for preferring JDK over .NET/CLR. I don't think you're trying to hear that or be reasonable about it.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by DanLamb View Post
        I have explained a quite logical basis for preferring JDK over .NET/CLR. I don't think you're trying to hear that or be reasonable about it.
        I do not see your explanation. I am certainly open to arguments but I hope I have also explained my priorities. I think that being able to compile your own stack (open source) is one of the biggest advantages. Obviously it would be insignificant if the platform did not have features and needed libraries and also the needs may vary significantly depending on the tools needed. JVM has a lot of mature solutions for sure. That said I am for example a heavy user of Node.JS and one could say it is totally immature and sure I encounter problems but being able to solve them quickly by good contact with developers, ability to fix issues by yourself and quickly develop modules makes it the most versatile platform I have used. I think Mono could have similar outreach like Node.JS if the developers steered a bit away from Microsoft.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Sonadow View Post
          You get the HotSpot JVM with Oracle's version.

          Not sure what VM OpenJDK uses. At least, in v6 and v7 it wasn't HotSpot.
          As another user pointed out, it IS HotSpot in OpenJDK. Where did you get the idea that OpenJDK uses a different VM? (there are other VMs available for OpenJDK, but it's HotSpot for x86/x86-64 by default).

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          • #20
            Originally posted by RushPL View Post
            It is deeply ironic how you all rush to install Oracle's binary blobs and yet bash open source Mono in different threads. Shame.
            You can compile your own release of OpenJDK, I don't see your point.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Pseus View Post
              You can compile your own release of OpenJDK, I don't see your point.
              Can I play Minecraft on it, host JIRA/Confluence or use it for shitty government services that need Java in the browser?

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by RushPL View Post
                You assume it is only Microsoft vs Oracle. I argue that Mono is outside of direct influence of MS. Granted, they try to copy all the stuff MS does but they also do innovative things like Ahead-Of-Time compilation and arguably they became more portable than JVM ever was. It is a piece of cake to compile Mono on any random ARM boards and AOT allows you to compile it to Objective-C and heck, through LLVM you could probably run Mono on any JavaScript engine.

                If you do not agree with my previous point then if it was Sun instead of Oracle perhaps I could agree with you on the lesser evil part but in my opinion Oracle is as evil as Microsoft is (some would argue that all corporations are evil but I would answer that some managements are more evil than others). So between Java and .NET it's two evil corporations and two major technology stacks which they control. A draw?

                As for languages of choice, I heard lots of nice things about Scala but then I heard a lot of nice things about F#. F# as actually created initially on Mono and its creators postulate to not marginalize Mono. Let's talk about technology stacks because languages could obviously be implemented with different back-ends.

                That said ... I personally think Mono could do much better by itself if it freed itself from Microsoft completely.

                My final point is that Mono is a nice open piece of technology by itself and Java that everybody uses is a buggy insecure piece of blob. How to run Minecraft on any open source Java tech?
                I am not seeing your point here either. OpenJDK is portable (through Red Hat's Zero and Shark projects). There's also a LLVM based JVM in the works (VMKit j3). Furthermore, Java has an established community process for proposals (most new features start as JSRs): https://jcp.org/en/jsr/overview

                Java is also available in AOT form through GCJ (which is not in a good shape nowadays, but the work was done years ago).

                There's also the fact that the community could fork OpenJDK if they felt like it.

                First party/first day support for Linux/MacOS/Windows, open source, established community process, industrial-grade implementation, vast libraries. I don't see how Mono could compete with that for now.

                BTW, I'm not a Minecraft user, but from what I gather from Google it runs without problems on OpenJDK (i.e. "open source java tech").

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by RushPL View Post
                  Can I play Minecraft on it, host JIRA/Confluence or use it for shitty government services that need Java in the browser?
                  A quick Google search shows JIRA/Confluence runs on OpenJDK, it's just Atlassian decided not to provide official support for it. So...yes, you can host Confluence on it. And play Minecraft.

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                  • #24
                    I did the Java thing for 15+ years and was quite the advocate but it really lost me when Oracle decided to ditch some of the initial principles of elegance and strictness in favor of making a "J#", so to speak. And now it seems they are chasing after this Scala, which is an absolutely idiotic programming language.

                    At this point in my career I'm ready to propose that everything be scrapped but C. Everything should be C only from here on out.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by RushPL View Post
                      I could agree with you on the lesser evil part but in my opinion Oracle is as evil as Microsoft is (some would argue that all corporations are evil but I would answer that some managements are more evil than others). So between Java and .NET it's two evil corporations and two major technology stacks which they control. A draw?
                      This notion of "evil" is silly. "good vs evil" narratives are usually emotional exaggerations and simplifications that divert thought from more reasoned logic.

                      Originally posted by Rich Oliver View Post
                      If we can continue to ramp up the adoption of Scala then we can get the resources and person power to build our own Virtual Machine /native compilation, targeted at Linux free of Oracle's control..
                      Someone controls everything. I don't see how Oracle is a particular problem. If someone else makes a better product than the Oracle VM, it might be worth switching, but I don't see an inherent advantage to non-Oracle control and ownership.

                      Microsoft is notorious for having this ecosystem of developer products that leverage you into using other Microsoft products. For example, some C# LINQ features only work with SQL Server. Visual Studio only works on Windows OS. A lot of third party C# libraries and SDKs only work with the Microsoft version of .NET and assume Visual Studio and don't work with Mono. A lot of people love the Microsoft ecosystem and tie in is fine. Other people have valid reasons to avoid the Microsoft ecosystem, and it makes these technologies a poor choice.

                      The technology tie-in issue really isn't a problem with Oracle. Sure, Oracle has their own OS/databases/IDEs, but they don't pressure regular JDK developers to use or favor those in any way.

                      The other issue is that Mono and C# don't really do much that you can't do better elsewhere. It's not like they have some killer feature that no one else can match. As a pure language, C# has many advantages over C/C++ or JavaScript, but it's way behind something like Scala. F# is supposedly much better, it's a .NET port of OCaml, but if you prefer the JVM as an overall platform, you're probably just better off with Scala. I'd also suspect the ecosystem and community is more active with Scala.

                      Originally posted by RushPL View Post
                      I argue that Mono is outside of direct influence of MS.
                      This claim is silly. They are paid by Microsoft. Their sole purpose is to promote and evangelize Microsoft technologies.

                      Originally posted by RushPL View Post
                      My final point is that [...] the Java that everybody uses is a buggy insecure piece of blob.
                      This is childish. Java is "buggy" and "insecure"? In terms of server software or workstation software, this is just unreasonable and not true. If you're talking about applets, that's true, they are insecure and buggy, but applets are mostly an older legacy component that isn't used by the overwhelming majority of the Java development community and is irrelevant.

                      Originally posted by RushPL View Post
                      I think that being able to compile your own stack (open source) is one of the biggest advantages.
                      The ability to rebuild the JDK and potentially fork/modify is important for a few rare niche scenarios, but is completely unnecessary for most usage, and most developers don't care. What is more commonly important is the ability to see or debug into the source code, specifically at the high level Java which is easy with the JDK, but doing full rebuilds or maintaining full forks is much more rare. Most of the JDK code is in public easily accessible repos and it can be built and forked according with the GPL license, but there are discrepancies with the official Oracle binaries, and that's not a concern for me or most other developers.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Pseus View Post
                        You can compile your own release of OpenJDK, I don't see your point.
                        You can build OpenJDK yourself, but it's not as good and as supported as the Oracle version. This is a legitimate issue for the people that want to make their own forks of the jdk.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by RushPL View Post
                          Can I play Minecraft on it, host JIRA/Confluence or use it for shitty government services that need Java in the browser?
                          I works for the government crap in Denmark. It also have better audio intergration.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by TheSoulz View Post
                            i hate that they dont provide one -.-
                            i find myself using webupd8 ppa: http://www.webupd8.org/2012/01/insta...buntu-via.html
                            for easy install and update.

                            is there a reason why they dont provide a deb file or even better put it on the store?
                            When Oracel took over Java, they changed the license so that Canonical could no longer distribute it. They said that it was just a temp thing and would lead to better things... still waiting

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by AJenbo View Post
                              When Oracel took over Java, they changed the license so that Canonical could no longer distribute it. They said that it was just a temp thing and would lead to better things... still waiting
                              Oracle withdrew the "Operating System Distributor License for Java" (DLJ) to promote OpenJDK, the "better thing" you are looking for is there:

                              http://packages.ubuntu.com/openjdk-7

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Sadly some applications still only run with Oracle java, and I have a lot of users complain that installing java is non intuitive when the package they need is actually called Icedtea. Furthermore sites that require java just points to Java.com where they are just handed a tar and not given propper instructions on how to install it or that openjdk exists. In any case I find that having both easily available is better than just one

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