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KDE Vivaldi Tablet Finally Shipping For QA Testing

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  • #31
    please dee, just put him on your ignore list, if you quote him I can still see his posts.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by e8hffff View Post
      Mir solves this problem since it uses Android drivers, but Kubuntu teams have demonised Mir and have locked down to Wayland, therefore what hope is there. Some claim Wayland and the Sailfish project show promise of Android leanings, but no where near the vision of Canonical's Mir which is a fundamental to them to use Android drivers.

      Anyway it's a matter of opinion. You can pass my comments by.
      Mir gained Android drivers support by using Jolla's library libhybris, which Jolla is using for Wayland with Android drivers.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by e8hffff View Post
        Canonical said they had to bring abilities into their court as the solutions out there didn't suit their direction [paraphrasing]. The reason why they dropped Wayland and coded for their own needs.
        All of the technical reasons they have stated for why they couldn't use Wayland have been shown to be 100% false. Do you know of any new technical reasons why they would need to use Mir that I haven't heard of? Shuttleworth is just making vague statements about there being some undefined things wrong with Wayland, when he's not simply plain lying and/or talking out his ass. The truth is, every supposed "advantage" of Mir (as presented by various Canonical employees) have been shown to be non-existent: Android driver support? Came from Wayland originally. Server-side buffer allocation? Can be done in Wayland. Canonical wants control of the display server? Not a problem, Wayland is a protocol - just implement your own compositor and have all the control over the codebase you ever want - like others are doing right now. Can't be used in a phone? False, Jolla is using it and their first phone is getting on the market before any Mir phone.

        What it comes down to is political reasons. Maybe Canonical wants to separate Ubuntu from other Linux operating systems? Well, as a company that is 99% dependent on the work of the community, ie. the other Linux systems, it's still a stupid move and very, very likely to blow up on their face. Or maybe they "want the freedom to break APIs if needed and not follow a set protocol" (as I'm sure I've heard either Bacon or Shuttleworth saying) - which... pretty much amounts to the same thing, really: with that reasoning, it becomes very, very clear that it's a solution that only suits the purpose of one single user (Canonical), will not support interoperability between different implementations (anyone other than Canonical), and that it's a conscious effort to actually *break* compatibility between Ubuntu and other Linux systems.

        But this wasn't about Canonical's reasons. You were earlier in the thread shouting about how KDE is stupid because they don't use Mir, and that you think they should use Mir. Since you said it, I've for the last 3-4 posts been trying to get you to answer me why exactly do you think anyone other than Canonical would want to use Mir, what reason could they possibly have to use it? But it seems you go to great lengths to avoid answering this question. If you don't have an answer, just say so, and we can assign your Mir-evangelism to irrational fanboyism.

        Originally posted by e8hffff
        Considering The teams surrounding Kubuntu have gone into the 'cave' regarding innovation and supporting forward projects like Mir
        ...
        Btw I mean what I say.
        Seems to me you really have some great reasons why you think KDE and others should support Mir. You must have some really good information about why Mir suits their needs better than Wayland. Why else would you write things like that? Tell us the reasons. Why should KDE use Mir instead of Wayland? Why is Mir a better match for them (or anyone)?

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        • #34
          is it going to need 32mil in 31 days at 900$ a pop?

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          • #35
            Originally posted by e8hffff View Post
            If you google, I was an early supporter of PlasmaActive on the Nexus7.

            I come to the realisation it had little chance of getting successful as it was crippled by the ability to move to other devices easily. Mir solves this problem since it uses Android drivers, but Kubuntu teams have demonised Mir and have locked down to Wayland, therefore what hope is there. Some claim Wayland and the Sailfish project show promise of Android leanings, but no where near the vision of Canonical's Mir which is a fundamental to them to use Android drivers.

            PlasmaActive is also a closed shop and the teams don't listen to criticism from users. The interface is lacking and slow to progress.

            Anyway it's a matter of opinion. You can pass my comments by.
            You just won the "Phoronix - Retard Post of the Year 2013" Prize. Who cares if there are still 5 months to go. No one will ever top that!

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            • #36
              Originally posted by TheBlackCat View Post
              So rather than support a non-profit group that is able to develop, build, and ship a device on their own, you instead throw your support behind a for-profit company that nevertheless has to beg for money in order to even begin working on their hardware?
              Massive difference is that the Vivaldi was already massively overpriced THE DAY IT WAS ANNOUNCED A YEAR AGO as at the time you could already beat it with a $100~120 no name tablet. Its the same thing that happened with the ZaTab, Neo FreeRunner, OpenPandora etc. If the specs are too low for the price you are asking you push away allot of your potential customers which leaves you in a position where you don't have the funds to update.

              The Ubuntu phone on the other hand actually has really good specs with a price in line with the cost of similarly spec'd devices that aren't subsidized by the carrier. That they are shooting for top end specs and looking to pull in $32m in venture capital shows that unlike the amateurs they are actually serious as a heart attack about pulling off a successful hardware launch. Doing so will allow them to bring in more big money investors to expand the product line.

              This is an interesting year for the tablet and phone space as you've got FirefoxOS and Jolla Sailfish set to take on Android at the low end and you've got Ubuntu going after the high end where you have iOS to compete with as well.

              I'm not a big fan of Canonical, but I hate Apple and Google even more.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Kivada View Post
                Massive difference is that the Vivaldi was already massively overpriced THE DAY IT WAS ANNOUNCED A YEAR AGO as at the time you could already beat it with a $100~120 no name tablet. Its the same thing that happened with the ZaTab, Neo FreeRunner, OpenPandora etc. If the specs are too low for the price you are asking you push away allot of your potential customers which leaves you in a position where you don't have the funds to update.

                The Ubuntu phone on the other hand actually has really good specs with a price in line with the cost of similarly spec'd devices that aren't subsidized by the carrier. That they are shooting for top end specs and looking to pull in $32m in venture capital shows that unlike the amateurs they are actually serious as a heart attack about pulling off a successful hardware launch. Doing so will allow them to bring in more big money investors to expand the product line.

                This is an interesting year for the tablet and phone space as you've got FirefoxOS and Jolla Sailfish set to take on Android at the low end and you've got Ubuntu going after the high end where you have iOS to compete with as well.

                I'm not a big fan of Canonical, but I hate Apple and Google even more.
                i like Apple and Google even more then Canonical, Goolge and Apple told us how it was going to be from the beginning and, not lying to us about everything, Like Canonical is doing

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Kivada View Post
                  Massive difference is that the Vivaldi was already massively overpriced THE DAY IT WAS ANNOUNCED A YEAR AGO as at the time you could already beat it with a $100~120 no name tablet. Its the same thing that happened with the ZaTab, Neo FreeRunner, OpenPandora etc. If the specs are too low for the price you are asking you push away allot of your potential customers which leaves you in a position where you don't have the funds to update.

                  The Ubuntu phone on the other hand actually has really good specs with a price in line with the cost of similarly spec'd devices that aren't subsidized by the carrier. That they are shooting for top end specs and looking to pull in $32m in venture capital shows that unlike the amateurs they are actually serious as a heart attack about pulling off a successful hardware launch. Doing so will allow them to bring in more big money investors to expand the product line.

                  This is an interesting year for the tablet and phone space as you've got FirefoxOS and Jolla Sailfish set to take on Android at the low end and you've got Ubuntu going after the high end where you have iOS to compete with as well.

                  I'm not a big fan of Canonical, but I hate Apple and Google even more.
                  like i said, Vivaldi is not a consumer project but a FOSS lover/developers project and is not intended for facebookz is intended for developers and enthusiast that preffer hardware and opendrivers for their projects. See vivaldi as an open version with screen of the Odroid or the raspberry PI.

                  on the ubuntu edge side i find the hardware mix a bit bogus, as far as i know ARM nor Intel SoC have enough bandwith to use an SSD any faster than eMMC and the battery seems to handle unrealistic use times, i mean once you plug the thing to an 1080p monitor and open your 20 chromium tabs the SoC is gonna punish the battery like there is no tomorrow, dunno maybe later with more details

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by jrch2k8 View Post
                    like i said, Vivaldi is not a consumer project but a FOSS lover/developers project and is not intended for facebookz is intended for developers and enthusiast that preffer hardware and opendrivers for their projects. See vivaldi as an open version with screen of the Odroid or the raspberry PI.

                    on the ubuntu edge side i find the hardware mix a bit bogus, as far as i know ARM nor Intel SoC have enough bandwith to use an SSD any faster than eMMC and the battery seems to handle unrealistic use times, i mean once you plug the thing to an 1080p monitor and open your 20 chromium tabs the SoC is gonna punish the battery like there is no tomorrow, dunno maybe later with more details
                    Wrong, with the Vivaldi specs all it's good for is "teh fazbok", try any cheapass tablet with the same specs. It's literally slower then the slowest Intel Atom system ever made. The difference between the RPi and this is that the RPi is dirt cheap and is designed for it to be used in all kinds of embedded applications, it's not a completed device meant to be used exclusively as is like the Vivaldi.

                    If they wanted to actually stand a chance at producing something that would have any impact at all on the way ARM hardware is made they needed to go high end with only hardware that either already has FOSS drivers or has documentation out so that one can be made. that way they can get the attention of the FOSS devs, the OSS only crowd, the mobile geeks that want to try something new and the people that want a device that isn't Android or iOS.

                    Every company lies about battery life, it's always taken with the laptop in it's lowest power state with the backlight, wifi and speakers off and is only displaying the desktop in a room so cold the fans never come on and the battery works more efficiently.

                    Don't use a slug like Chromium, having more SSD bandwidth then your SoC can use is actually a great thing since if you have to hit the swap the performance hit will be negligible, I don't see how the SoC would be working much harder to drive the screen, considering that there are already 1920x1080 res phones on he market, the phone isn't powering the external monitor, it's mirroring to an output, that output doesn't draw much of any power at all and you can have the monitor handle the scaling for you, try it with your laptop.
                    Last edited by Kivada; 07-23-2013, 02:37 PM.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by LinuxGamer View Post
                      i like Apple and Google even more then Canonical, Goolge and Apple told us how it was going to be from the beginning and, not lying to us about everything, Like Canonical is doing
                      You must not read much news then. Canonical has yet to file hundreds of frivolous lawsuits around the world, has yet to hand over all user data to the NSA, has yet to patent stupid obvious things to extort competitors etc.

                      Fuck both Apple and Google.

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                      • #41
                        Why would you even care about battery life in a situation where you plug in your device to a monitor that requires a power outlet anyway...

                        To me, it's always going to be a pointless idea to try to make a phone/tablet act as a desktop - what's the point? If you need the space for a monitor + keyboard, you can just as well have a small desktop unit driving them, and then you get to use your phone/tablet and desktop independently of each other - what benefit is there of combining both in the same device, with one CPU? Oh sure, you'll have all your files on the same mini-sized SSD... but you could just sync your mobile storage with your desktop HD... and that's the way it is with every possible benefit, any benefit you could get from using phone/tablet as desktop could be got even better with a separate desktop + phone/tablet that syncs up & communicates with it.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Kivada View Post
                          Wrong, with the Vivaldi specs all it's good for is "teh fazbok", try any cheapass tablet with the same specs. It's literally slower then the slowest Intel Atom system ever made. The difference between the RPi and this is that the RPi is dirt cheap and is designed for it to be used in all kinds of embedded applications, it's not a completed device meant to be used exclusively as is like the Vivaldi.

                          If they wanted to actually stand a chance at producing something that would have any impact at all on the way ARM hardware is made they needed to go high end with only hardware that either already has FOSS drivers or has documentation out so that one can be made. that way they can get the attention of the FOSS devs, the OSS only crowd, the mobile geeks that want to try something new and the people that want a device that isn't Android or iOS.

                          Every company lies about battery life, it's always taken with the laptop in it's lowest power state with the backlight, wifi and speakers off and is only displaying the desktop in a room so cold the fans never come on and the battery works more efficiently.

                          Don't use a slug like Chromium, having more SSD bandwidth then your SoC can use is actually a great thing since if you have to hit the swap the performance hit will be negligible, I don't see how the SoC would be working much harder to drive the screen, considering that there are already 1920x1080 res phones on he market, the phone isn't powering the external monitor, it's mirroring to an output, that output doesn't draw much of any power at all and you can have the monitor handle the scaling for you, try it with your laptop.
                          well vivaldi hardware is more than enough and is open enough to have lots of fun using it with KDE SC apps and profiling the bejesus out of the code + playground hardware to do very fun things with mer codebase or pure GNU stack on ARM, stuff that in my nexus 7/10 are a massive pain in the ass to do.

                          1.) well the concept is not clone, is a second output since in theory monitor will get an classic unity desktop interfaces while the phone keeps the mobile one[few details on the how tho]
                          2.) well if you bus allow 20mb/s[for example] and your disk can reach 500mb/s once you have reach 19mb/s the SoC will bottleneck for everything including swap[that you don't want in your ssd to start with but ram allocs]
                          3.) using mouse and keyboard give more stress to the SoC than using fingers especially in work devices since is a lot faster to control many things at once, switch back and forth and open apps/tabs.
                          4.) for this ubuntu thing to be a real work devices it need some way to retrofit power to the device since any office user will murder the battery in 1h, so they should include some sort of powered dock[not enough info on this either tho]
                          5.) dunno about chromium but whatever android browser i used with 10+ tabs active kill my nexus 10 battery like in 1.5h[just to test it, i can't tolerate more than 2 tabs active at the same time]

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by jrch2k8 View Post
                            well vivaldi hardware is more than enough and is open enough to have lots of fun using it with KDE SC apps and profiling the bejesus out of the code + playground hardware to do very fun things with mer codebase or pure GNU stack on ARM, stuff that in my nexus 7/10 are a massive pain in the ass to do.

                            1.) well the concept is not clone, is a second output since in theory monitor will get an classic unity desktop interfaces while the phone keeps the mobile one[few details on the how tho]
                            2.) well if you bus allow 20mb/s[for example] and your disk can reach 500mb/s once you have reach 19mb/s the SoC will bottleneck for everything including swap[that you don't want in your ssd to start with but ram allocs]
                            3.) using mouse and keyboard give more stress to the SoC than using fingers especially in work devices since is a lot faster to control many things at once, switch back and forth and open apps/tabs.
                            4.) for this ubuntu thing to be a real work devices it need some way to retrofit power to the device since any office user will murder the battery in 1h, so they should include some sort of powered dock[not enough info on this either tho]
                            5.) dunno about chromium but whatever android browser i used with 10+ tabs active kill my nexus 10 battery like in 1.5h[just to test it, i can't tolerate more than 2 tabs active at the same time]
                            You realize that the Edge is a phone correct? And that top end ARM devices have GPUs as fast as those in the PS3.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by dee. View Post
                              Why would you even care about battery life in a situation where you plug in your device to a monitor that requires a power outlet anyway...

                              To me, it's always going to be a pointless idea to try to make a phone/tablet act as a desktop - what's the point? If you need the space for a monitor + keyboard, you can just as well have a small desktop unit driving them, and then you get to use your phone/tablet and desktop independently of each other - what benefit is there of combining both in the same device, with one CPU? Oh sure, you'll have all your files on the same mini-sized SSD... but you could just sync your mobile storage with your desktop HD... and that's the way it is with every possible benefit, any benefit you could get from using phone/tablet as desktop could be got even better with a separate desktop + phone/tablet that syncs up & communicates with it.
                              Um. What? Care to break that up into coherent thoughts?

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by dee. View Post
                                All of the technical reasons they have stated for why they couldn't use Wayland have been shown to be 100% false. Do you know of any new technical reasons why they would need to use Mir that I haven't heard of? Shuttleworth is just making vague statements about there being some undefined things wrong with Wayland, when he's not simply plain lying and/or talking out his ass. The truth is, every supposed "advantage" of Mir (as presented by various Canonical employees) have been shown to be non-existent: Android driver support? Came from Wayland originally.
                                So your position is Wayland was the proponents of libhybris from the very start. It doesn't make sense when libhybris originally could only do video and maybe touch.

                                I wasn't sure Monk had his library named libhybris that is why I had to edit my post and remove the sentence asking for proof they stole his project. After I look they happen to stay with the name, and that's history. They embellished the original basic structure and now libhybris is an active important project for all to use.

                                Originally posted by dee. View Post
                                What it comes down to is political reasons. Maybe Canonical wants to separate Ubuntu from other Linux operating systems?
                                If I can talk of my own opinion of Canonical, they're not trying to separate themselves from Linux as that would leave them out of accessing vast coming and existing resources. They have simply adopted projects that advance Linux in a way that makes it less confronting, faster and wide, example PulseAudio, Mir, proprietary video drivers. This is contrasted with many people crying old school, example painfully setting their system to do ALSA-OSS and bitching how bad PulseAudio is, all whilst we hear this is going to be "The Year of Linux" to take over Microsoft Windows.

                                Originally posted by dee. View Post
                                Seems to me you really have some great reasons why you think KDE and others should support Mir. You must have some really good information about why Mir suits their needs better than Wayland. Why else would you write things like that? Tell us the reasons. Why should KDE use Mir instead of Wayland? Why is Mir a better match for them (or anyone)?
                                Wayland has come to libhybris due to Mir. It may interface the library and drivers in a less efficient manner (i'd need to research this more) so this is why I give more credence to Mir over Wayland as it's designed from the ground up to work with the library. Why should I drop excitement for Mir, because Wayland testers are linking to libhybris and that Wayland was on the ice for so long and picked up momentum due to Mir!

                                I'm sick of people from the 'Cave' screaming Canonical stole his project, and the like. It's like me saying Facebook or jQuery stole my XMLHttpRequest routine. Code ends up looking the same when you are addressing the same task. It's as simple as that and if there are claims of piracy then it's usually because people see their code comments stolen verbatim.

                                Lets sit back and watch which projects shine. Lets see if Ubuntu goes 'wide' and compare that to how well PlasmaActive goes with Wayland. If I put a bet on I'm pretty sure I'd be coming home with money.

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