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  • #31
    Originally posted by frantaylor View Post
    The nearsighted among us wonder why another smartphone OS.

    Keep your eye on the puck!

    Make a graph of phone processor power over time. Project this graph a couple of years into the future. That monotonically increasing function means that tomorrows phone has the processing power of today's laptop.

    Given the state of affairs why cart around a whole laptop? You are carrying the best bits, the processors and the storage, in your pocket. You only need a big screen and a big keyboard when you sit at a desk. Pop your phone into a docking station and ta-da it's a desktop system.

    HERE is where Ubuntu on your phone makes sense. You don't want to run android apps when you are sitting at your desk, you want ones that know you have a real keyboard and a real mouse and a big screen. So you want a DESKTOP ENVIRONMENT ON YOUR PHONE!!!

    And even better your android apps are still right there and you can run them on your desktop, interspersed with your Ubuntu apps. Sure they won't be fun without a touch screen, but what IS going to solve THAT problem?

    Better still: you are carrying around your desktop in your pocket so when you go to a hotel room or work or your friend's house, you still get the very same desktop you have at home.

    Yes back in the 70's the chairman of DEC said that the world's market for computers was maybe 100 systems or so.

    I look at comments that say "don't fix what isn't broken" and I see about the same amount of foresight. Ken Olsen could not imagine progress and these people cannot either.
    The problem I see is that few OEMs (that generally build devices of different form factors) would push for such a device, which means that regular person no longer needs any other computer than a mobile phone or tablet. They're always pushing new different form factors, so unless they can increase their margins for each device sold, I do not see the industry going that way, at least not now. Note that Mark Shuttleworth never mentioned that feature in the keynote. It was after, during engadget's interview that he commented on that.

    Changing to another subject, Canonical is finally pushing Qt all the way. Let's see if they drop GTK for their own apps.
    Last edited by newwen; 01-03-2013, 03:50 AM.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by frantaylor View Post
      The nearsighted among us wonder why another smartphone OS.

      Keep your eye on the puck!

      Make a graph of phone processor power over time. Project this graph a couple of years into the future. That monotonically increasing function means that tomorrows phone has the processing power of today's laptop.

      Given the state of affairs why cart around a whole laptop? You are carrying the best bits, the processors and the storage, in your pocket. You only need a big screen and a big keyboard when you sit at a desk. Pop your phone into a docking station and ta-da it's a desktop system.

      HERE is where Ubuntu on your phone makes sense. You don't want to run android apps when you are sitting at your desk, you want ones that know you have a real keyboard and a real mouse and a big screen. So you want a DESKTOP ENVIRONMENT ON YOUR PHONE!!!

      And even better your android apps are still right there and you can run them on your desktop, interspersed with your Ubuntu apps. Sure they won't be fun without a touch screen, but what IS going to solve THAT problem?

      Better still: you are carrying around your desktop in your pocket so when you go to a hotel room or work or your friend's house, you still get the very same desktop you have at home.

      Yes back in the 70's the chairman of DEC said that the world's market for computers was maybe 100 systems or so.

      I look at comments that say "don't fix what isn't broken" and I see about the same amount of foresight. Ken Olsen could not imagine progress and these people cannot either.
      My phone is already getting borderline. It is amazing what these candybar laptop/phones are able to do.

      With that said. Android has too much advantage in the mobile space at the moment it's going to be hard to get Ubuntu in the spotlight however the article on BBC was a good start.

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      • #33
        This sounds really promising, to some degree similar technology as Sailfish from Jolla.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by varikonniemi View Post
          This sounds really promising, to some degree similar technology as Sailfish from Jolla.
          especially if they push Qt/QML for native apps...

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          • #35
            Linux is dead! Long live Ubuntu!

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            • #36
              While I'm not a big fan of Canonical, this move should broaden the GNU/Linux landscape on smartphones and in turn even increase the chances of Jolla etc.

              Originally posted by liam View Post
              I hope theyre using the Firefox runtime for html5 in order to access the system features.
              Too bad about them going with Qt. EFL seems a much better choice for low end hardware.
              You want them to use another toolkit because of low-end phones but simultaneously want them to use Firefox? Throwing Firefox into the mix is way more demanding than using Qt+QtWebKit.

              There is only one or two Samsung developers dedicated to work on EFL full-time – a far cry from countless employed by Digia and KDAB.
              Also EFL is compatible with nothing beside itself, while OTOH ports of Qt to Android and iOS are in the works. Qt is already deployed on countless of Symbian phones, resulting in a rather smooth transition for existing Symbian app developers. Also RIM is using Qt in BB10.
              Qt app developers can write the app once and deploy it for BB10, SailfishOS, and Ubuntu without even bundling Qt.
              That said: Nothing is preventing app developers to use EFL and bundle it with the app.

              PS: It should be possible to install the Ubuntu UI on a Jolla phone, just as any desktop GNU/Linux distribution can use different DEs.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by varikonniemi View Post
                This sounds really promising, to some degree similar technology as Sailfish from Jolla.
                Duh. Obviously one GNU/Linux distribution is technologically similar to another. The technological difference between Sailfish and Ubuntuon smartphones is no greater than Fedora and Ubuntu on PCs.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
                  You want them to use another toolkit because of low-end phones but simultaneously want them to use Firefox? Throwing Firefox into the mix is way more demanding than using Qt+QtWebKit.

                  There is only one or two Samsung developers dedicated to work on EFL full-time – a far cry from countless employed by Digia and KDAB.
                  Also EFL is compatible with nothing beside itself, while OTOH ports of Qt to Android and iOS are in the works. Qt is already deployed on countless of Symbian phones, resulting in a rather smooth transition for existing Symbian app developers. Also RIM is using Qt in BB10.
                  Qt app developers can write the app once and deploy it for BB10, SailfishOS, and Ubuntu without even bundling Qt.
                  That said: Nothing is preventing app developers to use EFL and bundle it with the app.
                  The problem is that I think qt may have some inherent performance issues.Jolla was none too snappy on their reference device.
                  EFL is basically designed for the embedded space and is awfully . So while is has fewer developers it has been a very tightly focused project where Qt seems like it is desperate to be the toolkit to fit all needs. Besides, Qt's future looks none too bright.
                  FFOS is supposed to be lightweight (remember no XUL just HTML and JS and DOM mechanisms;no toolkits or separate runtimesruntimes) but we'll have to see if the performance is there b/c html5 is ubiquitous in a way Qt will never be.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by liam View Post
                    The problem is that I think qt may have some inherent performance issues.Jolla was none too snappy on their reference device.
                    EFL is basically designed for the embedded space and is awfully . So while is has fewer developers it has been a very tightly focused project where Qt seems like it is desperate to be the toolkit to fit all needs. Besides, Qt's future looks none too bright.
                    FFOS is supposed to be lightweight (remember no XUL just HTML and JS and DOM mechanisms;no toolkits or separate runtimesruntimes) but we'll have to see if the performance is there b/c html5 is ubiquitous in a way Qt will never be.
                    The N9 is reasonably snappy considering its quite poor CPU (although most of the interface is QWidget and not QML IIRC). Sure, if you are looking for current low end, Qt is not the perfect toolkit. If you are looking for Q3 2013 mid-range and above (in time and range), and transitioning to Qt5, then Qt is largely up to the task.
                    JS/HTML5 for apps and Qt/QML for native seems a very reasonable choice to me, especially if you are targeting devices that can act as desktops (ubuntu), or high end (BB, Jolla).

                    Now maybe Samsung will target the lower end with tizen (cheaper phones, or other devices like TVs and smart appliances), and in that case HTML5 + EFL makes sense for them. I assumed it was more of a political choice though, resulting from the Intel/Nokia divorce.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by liam View Post
                      The problem is that I think qt may have some inherent performance issues.Jolla was none too snappy on their reference device.
                      EFL is basically designed for the embedded space and is awfully . So while is has fewer developers it has been a very tightly focused project where Qt seems like it is desperate to be the toolkit to fit all needs. Besides, Qt's future looks none too bright.
                      FFOS is supposed to be lightweight (remember no XUL just HTML and JS and DOM mechanisms;no toolkits or separate runtimesruntimes) but we'll have to see if the performance is there b/c html5 is ubiquitous in a way Qt will never be.
                      A new developed mobil shell has performence issu, and you say it is the relatively mature toolkit. More likely it is their own code.
                      EFL is not dead it never lived. And if it should do so samsung need to spend much more money on it. And if they do so they need to see it as more than a way to strengthen their negotiating position with google and microsoft.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by dh04000 View Post
                        No, it didn't mention ANY provider that will be picking up the phone as of this date. Nor do I think it mentioned that it turns into the FULL ubuntu desktop when docked to a hdmi capable tv and usb keyboard mouse combo. I found that detail on the ubuntu blog.
                        The phone that they showed in their videos is the Galaxy Nexus. They claim that images will be released in a few weeks. It takes to reason that it will be possible to use Ubuntu for Phones on any provider that supports the Galaxy Nexus.

                        Originally posted by RussianNeuroMancer View Post
                        Really? How they achieve X.Org Server running on top of Android drivers that doesn't support GLX?
                        The Open Moko people got it to work. They probably did the same thing.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by liam View Post
                          The problem is that I think qt may have some inherent performance issues
                          So you have some benchmarks to back up your claim or is it just in your head? I'd really see some comparison in drawing performance between Qt and EFL.

                          Originally posted by liam View Post
                          EFL is basically designed for the embedded space and is awfully . So while is has fewer developers it has been a very tightly focused project
                          Focused on what? Super slow development cycles? If EFL are focused on anything, it's being the foundation for the Enlightenment DE for PCs (hence the name). EFL are not focused to be a smartphone toolkit at all because E17 is not a smartphone DE. The only advantage from the point of view of Samsung etc. is that EFL is mostly BSD-licensed (although Elementary is LGPLed).

                          Originally posted by liam View Post
                          where Qt seems like it is desperate to be the toolkit to fit all needs. Besides, Qt's future looks none too bright.
                          1.) Qt IS a toolkit that fits almost all needs.
                          2.) Why would Qt's future not be bright? It's in the hands of an independent developer now and more and more vendors adopt it.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by liam View Post
                            The problem is that I think qt may have some inherent performance issues.
                            What are these inherent performance issues?

                            Originally posted by liam View Post
                            Besides, Qt's future looks none too bright.
                            This is based on?

                            ...and how is Qt's future not bright compared to EFL's future?

                            Qt has more commercial backers, more developers, is more widely deployed, offers more functionality and performs efficiently where it is used.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by jayrulez View Post
                              What are these inherent performance issues?
                              The examples of Qt I've seen in embedded situations have been slow and laggy.


                              This is based on?

                              ...and how is Qt's future not bright compared to EFL's future?

                              Qt has more commercial backers, more developers, is more widely deployed, offers more functionality and performs efficiently where it is used.

                              Since these are all related I thought I'd answer them as a type.
                              Nokia seems to be completely moving away from Qt. That leaves Attachmate as their Solè large backer. Now, that wouldn't be a problem if Qt had a strong position but it doesn't seem to since it seems like the companies have always struggled to find a way to monetize it.
                              EFL has, to my knowledge, always been designed to be extremely lean and it's original Dev still works on it. It has a clear goal and modest needs. Since it isn't trying to be all things it doesn't need tons of corporate support, though I'm sure more would be appreciated.

                              To be clear, I'm not backing any horse in this race but I'd liked to see the Ubuntu phone go somewhere and it SEEMS like Qt is the kiss of death.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
                                So you have some benchmarks to back up your claim or is it just in your head? I'd really see some comparison in drawing performance between Qt and EFL.
                                Like most on here, I am basing my statement on what I've observed, however I was careful in that I said MAY have problems. The problems I've seen are that every embedded Qt interface that I've seen (to be sure, I need to be aware that it is Qt, but Qt does have that certain look that kind of stands out) is laggy and slow. Examples? The ubuntu phone, Sailfish, N9 (with that being the best, IMHO, especially considering hardware).
                                If you can find actual performance comparisons I'd love links b/c I've looked for them. Here's a pdf that rasterman gave last year https://www.tizen.org/sites/default/...012_raster.pdf


                                Focused on what? Super slow development cycles? If EFL are focused on anything, it's being the foundation for the Enlightenment DE for PCs (hence the name). EFL are not focused to be a smartphone toolkit at all because E17 is not a smartphone DE. The only advantage from the point of view of Samsung etc. is that EFL is mostly BSD-licensed (although Elementary is LGPLed).
                                Mostly ignoring that snotty remark I'd say the focus is low memory usage and high performance. E17 isn't what the developers are getting paid to produce but a side effect of their obsession with efficiency has been that it is ideal for embedded systems. Aside from that, from a high level, the architecture looks nice and mature.

                                I found this post which was kind of interesting and may explain the slow release cycles (it may also be an ad hoc excuse): http://qt-project.org/forums/viewreply/89364/

                                I've never understood these Qt fanboys...
                                Last edited by liam; 01-05-2013, 07:27 PM.

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