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Linux On The 2012 MacBook Air, MacBook Pro?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by drag View Post
    Again, if you are buying Apple hardware with the intention of primarily running Linux on it you are making a big mistake. This link just goes to illustrate one part of why it's a terrible combination.
    And that goes to show that there is lack of really high end (and beautiful) HW that will run linux without a hitch. Or even something designed for it. Even thought i wouldn't touch their products with a stick they make pretty good computers.


    Also after running a UEFI system i don't think its quite the abomination that its supposed to be. Ok it might be for different uses but so far it runs without a problem in my case.It even eliminated the need for a bootloader.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by 89c51 View Post
      Since the announcement yesterday i am really curious to find out how the FOSS desktop environments perform in high resolution displays.
      At least now a days we use some SVG icons I think.


      Originally posted by drag View Post
      Linux + Apple Hardware == Huge Waste of money.
      I wouldn't mind somebody trying it to see what happens, but really it's a terrible idea to purchase a Macbook with the expectation that you are going to run Linux on it.
      Dual boot, fine. But get a Mac to primarily run OS X.
      Linus Torvalds run Linux on his MacBook Air.

      Originally posted by drag View Post
      Apple doesn't actually manufacture these things. Including the display. It's all contracted out to other companies which produce laptops and components to many other companies. Just wait until somebody starts advertising a Linux compatible device with similar resolution and you will get pretty much the same thing.
      But other companies maybe doesn't have a unibody design, hi-ppi / high-resolution screen, Thunderbolt, etc.
      Other companies have laptops with a dozen stickers.
      Other companies have plastic low-quality laptops.


      Originally posted by Aleve Sicofante View Post
      I find it amazing nobody sees the elephant in the room: Linux desktops lack any sensible approach to resolution independence. The problem is not if graphics drivers will be able to cope with Macbook Pro's millions of pixels (of course they will), but if the framework will understand it's a 220 ppi display and behave accordingly, i.e., not display microscopic fonts and icons, but scale them correctly so they use all those extra pixels to show more detail.
      I think we use some SVG (Scalable Vector Graphics) icons these days.
      Sadly we don't use SVG for the mouse pointer.
      Maybe with Wayland? I don't know. At least not with X.org though.


      Originally posted by 89c51 View Post
      I was under the impression that the linux desktop environments are resolution independent.
      Not the X.org mouse pointer.


      Originally posted by drag View Post
      Gnome desktop is more 'dpi independant' then OS X or Microsoft Windows is.

      All Apple does is just have two resolution modes that they use: 1x and 2x. So instead of tailoring the UI to one set of DPIs they just taylor it to 2 and then shoehorn in whatever looks better into their display.

      If people thinks that OS X can scale seemlessly between all sorts of different DPI monitors easier then Linux desktop can, they are drinking too much Apple flavored kool-aide.
      Doesn't OS X use a PostScript-based rendering system inherited from NeXTSTEP that is fully scalable?

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      • #18
        One more point: many websites aren't really scalable (many use pixel measurements rather than DPI or "m"-widths). Most mobile browsers already use ugly hacks to make layouts look normal on small screens; I imagine Apple use more of the same for their Retina displays.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by 89c51 View Post
          And that goes to show that there is lack of really high end (and beautiful) HW that will run linux without a hitch.
          No. It means that if you buy Apple computer you buy it to run OS X.

          The people that make Apple laptops make laptops for more companies then just Apple.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by uid313 View Post
            Linus Torvalds run Linux on his MacBook Air.
            If you are a kernel hacker then mucking around with your system to get it to work isn't going to be a big deal.

            How many patches are you going to write to get Linux to work half-way well on the new MacBook Pro? How many days of improving wifi drivers are you going to spend to get 5ghz wireless working?

            But other companies maybe doesn't have a unibody design, hi-ppi / high-resolution screen, Thunderbolt, etc.
            Wait a few months and other companies will come out with high density displays, too. It's the same thing as with Android vs iPhone.

            Apple just comes out first on these things because they have users that are willing to drop $2000 dollars on a 15 inch laptop.

            Other companies have laptops with a dozen stickers.
            Other companies have plastic low-quality laptops.
            And.. none of this means that Apple hardware will work better with Linux.

            Everything you said so far is pretty much completely irrelevant to anything I said.

            If you are going to go out and by a 600 dollar laptop from Dell expect it to actually BE plasticity and whatnot. If you want some brushed aluminium finish then be prepared to pay about the same price as a Apple system.

            Personally I don't want to go and drop 2500 dollars on a fast laptop that is going to cook my crotch or bake my arm just because I want a cool looking system.

            Doesn't OS X use a PostScript-based rendering system inherited from NeXTSTEP that is fully scalable?
            postscript-based = yes
            fully scalable = no.
            Not any more then Linux is.

            Compared to Windows XP it is very scalable, but that's isn't saying much since XP was hard coded to a single DPI. Windows Visa and 7 are scalable, too, but it still doesn't work very well because application designers don't typically take DPI changes into account.
            Last edited by drag; 06-13-2012, 07:00 AM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by drag View Post
              If you are a kernel hacker then mucking around with your system to get it to work isn't going to be a big deal.
              Well, if you want a system to work, then it might be a good idea to buy the same system as Linus Torvalds (or some other kernel developer) who is sure to fix any issues he run into.

              Originally posted by drag View Post
              If you are going to go out and by a 600 dollar laptop from Dell expect it to actually BE plasticity and whatnot. If you want some brushed aluminium finish then be prepared to pay about the same price as a Apple system.

              Personally I don't want to go and drop 2500 dollars on a fast laptop that is going to cook my crotch or bake my arm just because I want a cool looking system.
              But if you want a pretty, sleek, aluminium laptop and don't mind paying for it. Then Apple is pretty much the only choice.
              Other laptops are plastic and feel like toys and have dozens of stickers on em.[/quote]

              Originally posted by drag View Post
              postscript-based = yes
              fully scalable = no.
              Isn't PostScript inherently scalable?

              Is Linux desktop more scalable?
              How so?
              Is X.org scalable?
              Is Wayland scalable?
              Is GNOME/GTK+, KDE/Qt scalable?

              Comment


              • #22
                applelinux

                if you are buying Apple hardware with the intention of primarily running Linux on it you are making a big mistake.
                The mere intention of running linux on any hw can never be a mistake!!!

                Practically, well my mbp 7.1 runs os x,win7 and archlinux, and by far the worst experience with it has been whilst running windows, in spite of the apple-developed win-drivers. True, I've spent hours and hours on 'getting things to work with linux', but that is part of the fun for me, virtualising it just seems wrong

                Also, was it not linus' daughter's macbook?

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by hungerfish View Post
                  Practically, well my mbp 7.1 runs os x,win7 and archlinux, and by far the worst experience with it has been whilst running windows, in spite of the apple-developed win-drivers. True, I've spent hours and hours on 'getting things to work with linux', but that is part of the fun for me, virtualising it just seems wrong
                  If Apple have Windows developers, then I think they ought to have Linux developers too.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by uid313 View Post
                    If Apple have Windows developers, then I think they ought to have Linux developers too.
                    Here's a simple graphic that demonstrates how it works:

                    linux > mac > windows

                    How to read the graphic:
                    1. stuff to the left is irrelevant
                    2. must be compatible with stuff to the right

                    Also, haven't you seen the recent wave of "UltraBooks"? Most of them are similar to the Air but slightly higher value.

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                    • #25
                      So to sum up this topic, an Evil company produces hardware/software which some people with too much money and too few brain cells are willing to buy. Then, other people, allegedly smarter, come upon the idea to not use that hardware the way its manufacturer (or well, assembler, for all I care) intends to. And when it doesn't work, what do they do then? They don't blame the company or themselves for being so retarded and selling in to (for all I care a beautiful form of) Evil, they blame the software and find excuses to bash it.

                      I mean, in AMD's case, where they actually opened up their hardware as far as possible, I would somehow understand criticism. But iEvil doesn't even try to be non-iEvil products/OSs/programs friendly, so why blame Linux/Xorg/GTK/etc. for that?

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by susikala View Post
                        So to sum up this topic, an Evil company produces hardware/software which some people with too much money and too few brain cells are willing to buy. Then, other people, allegedly smarter, come upon the idea to not use that hardware the way its manufacturer (or well, assembler, for all I care) intends to. And when it doesn't work, what do they do then? They don't blame the company or themselves for being so retarded and selling in to (for all I care a beautiful form of) Evil, they blame the software and find excuses to bash it.
                        Can you name a company that produces beautiful hi end hardware that is intended to work with Linux.????

                        Originally posted by susikala View Post
                        I mean, in AMD's case, where they actually opened up their hardware as far as possible, I would somehow understand criticism. But iEvil doesn't even try to be non-iEvil products/OSs/programs friendly, so why blame Linux/Xorg/GTK/etc. for that?
                        People just want FOSS to work anywhere. As simple as that i think.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I ran OpenSuSE on a Macbook in 2008/2009, it was a nice combination once I got used to the zero-tactile-feedback keyboard (or maybe I had calluses from Fujitsu keyboards).

                          I hope Lenovo and Dell are paying attention to the 2880x1800 screen here. Because I'd love to by a w5x0 with a 2880x1800 screen. That lovely keyboard on the w5x0... yum.

                          Unless Apple has "patented" 2880x1800 screens.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by hoohoo View Post
                            I ran OpenSuSE on a Macbook in 2008/2009, it was a nice combination once I got used to the zero-tactile-feedback keyboard (or maybe I had calluses from Fujitsu keyboards).

                            I hope Lenovo and Dell are paying attention to the 2880x1800 screen here. Because I'd love to by a w5x0 with a 2880x1800 screen. That lovely keyboard on the w5x0... yum.

                            Unless Apple has "patented" 2880x1800 screens.
                            you are aware that many of the so called Apple displays are in fact just re-badged and striped down Dell devices right ? and these original Dell devices with more inputs have existed in retail for quite some time now.

                            and you are also aware that as of 2012, QFHD (38402160) is the newest standard from ITU drafts, this resolution is part of the UHDTV standard. It is four times the resolution of the 1080p HDTV video standard, hence the name (Quad meaning 4). HDMI 1.4 supports QFHD and several high grade products already exist today if you have the cash to buy them.

                            "Eyevis produces a 56" LCD named EYELCD 56 QHD HD while Toshiba makes the P56QHD and in October 2011 released the REGZA 55x3, which is claimed to be the First QFHD glasses-free 3D TV, Mitsubishi Electric the 56P-QF60LCU, and Sony the SRM-L560, all which can deliver a resolution of 38402160. Landmark has also produced a 56" QFHD monitor, the M5600"

                            then OC in the near future (within the next 8 years) there's the UHD (76804320) spec to be ratified and production to make and ship in retail, and far sooner in the high profit industrial grade markets medical/broadcast Etc.

                            UHD (Ultra High Definition), also known as 8K or 8K UHDTV, is a proposed display standard of 76804320 pixels (16 times the resolution of FHD) in the same 16:9 aspect ratio. It is advocated by NHK Science & Technology Research Laboratories and worked on by them and the BBC.

                            so better start saving now if you want these types of display for both 2D and 3D work and OC you will be needing something like the red-rocket card to run them so another extra $5K to put away
                            http://www.red.com/products/red-rocket
                            Last edited by popper; 06-13-2012, 12:18 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by popper View Post
                              you are aware that many of the so called Apple displays are in fact just re-badged and striped down Dell devices right ? and these original Dell devices with more inputs have existed in retail for quite some time now.
                              You are aware that this is completely and totally imaginary, right? The only thing that is remotely related to what you have stated is the 27" IPS panel, which Apple and Dell source from the same supplier.

                              There are numerous flaws with Apple's hardware and business methodology, why would you need to make stuff up?

                              Another poster did the same in reverse:

                              But if you want a pretty, sleek, aluminium laptop and don't mind paying for it. Then Apple is pretty much the only choice.
                              Other laptops are plastic and feel like toys and have dozens of stickers on em.
                              There's a diverse PC hardware ecosystem outside of what Apple offers. Both Asus and Sony have nice high-end aluminum laptop offerings. Apple's only trump card is the NG MBP. It has something that nobody else does. If you desire a high PPI display laptop, Apple is the only game in town, for now.

                              F

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by russofris View Post
                                You are aware that this is completely and totally imaginary, right? The only thing that is remotely related to what you have stated is the 27" IPS panel, which Apple and Dell source from the same supplier.

                                There are numerous flaws with Apple's hardware and business methodology, why would you need to make stuff up?

                                Another poster did the same in reverse:



                                There's a diverse PC hardware ecosystem outside of what Apple offers. Both Asus and Sony have nice high-end aluminum laptop offerings. Apple's only trump card is the NG MBP. It has something that nobody else does. If you desire a high PPI display laptop, Apple is the only game in town, for now.

                                F
                                and you make my point perfectly there, as you say and i implied above there is indeed a diverse PC hardware ecosystem and apple source all their kit there in bulk as they have always done (except when they were broke and let 3rd party OEM's produce PPC macs that turned out to be faster machines than the originals and apple Didn't like that so pulled the plug PDQ),then tweak it to lower the BOM casts in their 3rd party factories and sell it on at a premium price point.

                                but as to your speculated "iMac retina 20" @ 2*1920x1080 = 3840x2160" that doesnt seem very likely does it as apple going all the way back to the original mac have never kept to the official standards, and so it will more likely be a slightly reduced panel and they will be the first in retail to sell that size screen whatever it finally is, but it wont be a standard 16:9 ratio like the real QFHD (38402160) OC
                                Last edited by popper; 06-13-2012, 01:19 PM.

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