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The Biggest Problem For A Linux PC Vendor

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  • #46
    Originally posted by birdie View Post
    - I'm glad that other CAD solutions exist, but AutoCAD is by far the most popular and used one. It's de-facto for many applications and industries and there's no way you can avoid DWG in certain situations. Does it work under Linux? No. Will people try to install Linux just because for them it's all new and shiny? No.
    Ok... let me rephrase that as apparently I wasn't clear enough. The alternatives to AutoCAD that are compatible with linux (BricsCAD and Draftsight) are 100% compatible with the DWG2010 file format(the latest version). That means they can read and write to that format and the files can be opened in AutoCAD. In fact, 99% of commands use exactly the same names in these programs, so if you know how to use AutoCAD you know how to use any of those two programs. They are an almost perfect replacement. I already did some architecture projects on BricsCAD and a friend of mine uses Draftsight regularly and never complained about it not being AutoCAD.

    Originally posted by birdie View Post
    - Android is not Linux. Fine, you have just reiterated this.
    You were the one comparing a kernel to a full-blown operating system. Of course they aren't the same thing. But Android does use Linux (which is a kernel and not an operating system), so Linux really is in millions of phones right now.

    Originally posted by birdie View Post
    - Photoshop and Corel Painter are the two most used instruments amongst photographers in the world. You can argue ad infinitum that GIMP is usable, but GIMP offers a completely different workflow, lacks many crucial Photoshop features, and people just don't want to learn new instruments when there are the proven ones which work excellently (I don't even want to touch the topic of proprietary RAW formats support in Linux or lack of it - do you really think people will break their heads to make RAW files usable just because Linux costs $0? The OS cost is negligible for most people. Their professional instruments costs thousands of dollars and those instruments don't work in Linux).
    So it's OK to learn Photoshop, but god forbid that anyone even thinks of learning a new program? Once you learn Photoshop that's it? No need to ever learn how to use a new image manipulation program ever again? Or are people born knowing how to use Photoshop? And I wasn't talking about GIMP alone, but all the other wonderful free tools out there like Hugin (works on windows too, so you should like it), Digikam, UFRaw... Granted I only use Canon cameras (up until now), but I never had any problems with RAW support in any linux compatible photo processing tool.

    Originally posted by birdie View Post
    - It's difficult to realize for you but there are people different than you and such people want to play triple A games without too much hassle. They want to play their favorite games and absolutely most of them are not available natively for Linux.
    No, I have no problems realizing that there people who like all the new blockbuster games out there, but that article says that there aren't any games. That's not true. There are lots of games, just maybe not the ones the author of that article likes because they're not K00l. I could also say that the Nintendo VirtualBoy has no games, but that wouldn't be true. It has 21 games and they all suck, but it has games.

    Originally posted by birdie View Post
    Stop deluding yourself, people won't try Linux when basic things in Linux don't work or they are in a half-working state (sound robustness/hardware support/lack of consistency - Gnome3/Unity f*ck ups just to name a few).
    What do I care if people try linux or not? That's their business not mine. - Closed as: Works For Me.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by birdie View Post
      Reason with me, instead of uttering something totally disconnected with the topic of our conversation, and I'll likely comment upon.
      "I can stand for everything that's written there" is not my words, it's yours. Just another your lie, nothing new here.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by RussianNeuroMancer View Post
        "I can stand for everything that's written there" is not my words, it's yours. Just another your lie, nothing new here.
        You see - instead of reasoning you are getting personal. That's why I have no desire to discuss this topic with you.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by birdie View Post
          You see - instead of reasoning you are getting personal. That's why I have no desire to discuss this topic with you.
          Bullshit, you ignore inconvenient questions - nothing personal, just a fact.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by birdie View Post
            Does it matter whose fault it is since people just want to work with their OS? I really cannot understand why people always want to find someone to blame for.
            Implying you're not?

            Do you know why ISVs shun Linux? That's because Linux is the area of total instability and lack of any guarantees in regard to APIs and libraries versions. And that's where Linux sucks. Strangely RedHat with their RHEL does understand that.

            So, instead of changing development policy people keep on shouting out loud that it's not Linux, it's ISPs that don't want to release drivers/software for Linux. They really don't want to, because they don't want to employ dozens of programmers just to make sure their software keeps working years after its initial release date. ISVs cannot afford such luxury (in fact they can, but they don't want to make the money fly). In Windows, once released, you are pretty much guaranteed that your application will work for at least 6-10 years.
            You really should take a look at the Mac. They have forced deprecations of APIs every few years, and it's bitten at least Adobe hard. I'm willing to wager that it takes only one person, part-time, to keep a linux build going. Whereas the Carbon/Cocoa transition (latest big switch) forced them to rewrite a big part of their UI layer.

            Yet Photoshop continues to be available on OS X. Is it because it's easier to keep running on the platform? Hell no. It's because Adobe wants it there, costs be damned as long as there's enough profit.


            If we're going to compare this to linux, in the same situation they would just ship their own copy of the toolkit, and ignore say gtk3.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by curaga View Post
              You really should take a look at the Mac. They have forced deprecations of APIs every few years, and it's bitten at least Adobe hard. I'm willing to wager that it takes only one person, part-time, to keep a linux build going. Whereas the Carbon/Cocoa transition (latest big switch) forced them to rewrite a big part of their UI layer.

              Yet Photoshop continues to be available on OS X. Is it because it's easier to keep running on the platform? Hell no. It's because Adobe wants it there, costs be damned as long as there's enough profit.

              If we're going to compare this to linux, in the same situation they would just ship their own copy of the toolkit, and ignore say gtk3.
              We aren't talking about Mac here, but you've just shown that the breakage of stable APIs can bite even such monsters as Apple. And BTW Carbon/Cocoa transition, if I'm not mistaken, happened many many years ago

              Your last sentence just proved another point from that list - Linux has no good stable APIs for GUI development. Which means every ISV, according to your own words, have to create a toolkit just to run their software on Linux. Big companies can surely perform this feat. However a lot of small development teams and independent software developers (the ones who develop miscellaneous utilities and games) aren't in position to do so.

              IMO, Linux without commercial proprietary software will likely never become popular enough to even match MacOS market penetration and before it can pull this trick off it needs to guarantee at least some sort of stability. Alas, Open Source developers' stance in this case is, "We don't give a flying f*" (Google for e.g. stable API nonsense).

              I will be happy if everything that's written in this list is wrong or/and doesn't matter. Alas, I know some serious developers from the Windows world and they can put their names to the problems outlined there.

              That all means my viewpoint is probably not entirely unbiased, but Linux market share has remained flat for the last decade which probably means there's something very terribly wrong with the Linux world.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by birdie View Post
                We aren't talking about Mac here, but you've just shown that the breakage of stable APIs can bite even such monsters as Apple. And BTW Carbon/Cocoa transition, if I'm not mistaken, happened many many years ago
                It clearly shows it's not changing APIs that makes Windows more popular with ISVs.

                Your last sentence just proved another point from that list - Linux has no good stable APIs for GUI development. Which means every ISV, according to your own words, have to create a toolkit just to run their software on Linux. Big companies can surely perform this feat. However a lot of small development teams and independent software developers (the ones who develop miscellaneous utilities and games) aren't in position to do so.
                I said ship, not create. It takes very little effort to do that (copy some files), but for an even easier solution, they can link a toolkit in statically (see fltk, a toolkit meant for that).

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                • #53
                  You all got it wrong

                  Why all those dudes of Xorg and nuveaou and others combine their effort to actually support nvidia and amd properly without intel. So that we can have completely tearing free desktops and completely tearing free video playback with real sync to vblank. None of the drivers from nvidia or amd provide tearing free desktops and completely tearing free video playback so the whole discussion of dma buffer or other switching is completely pointless as none of those companies provide any working linux drivers whatsover. So switching between one non working shit and another non working shit is not an issue. The issue is a LACK of tearing free desktops and LACK of completely tearing free video playback and LACK of real sync to vblank in any configuration. Period.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by birdie View Post
                    I'm glad that other CAD solutions exist, but AutoCAD is by far the most popular and used one. It's de-facto for many applications and industries and there's no way you can avoid DWG in certain situations. Does it work under Linux? No.
                    There is partial support for DWG in open source libraries, and more complete support in commercial applications for linux. There has been renewed work on open source libraries recently.

                    OTOH, linux really *owns* the high end movie/video production market, while at the same time many people complain about the lack of video editing software on linux (I guess they refer to simple consumer and semi-professional/prosumer applications then, although e.g. Blender can probably do what most of them want).

                    I expect that as Ubuntu/linux becomes more and more popular with "simple" consumers, more and more software companies will provide linux versions of their software, but that will take some time & patience...

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by curaga View Post
                      You really should take a look at the Mac. They have forced deprecations of APIs every few years, and it's bitten at least Adobe hard. I'm willing to wager that it takes only one person, part-time, to keep a linux build going. Whereas the Carbon/Cocoa transition (latest big switch) forced them to rewrite a big part of their UI layer.
                      Several "recent" Adobe applications have been using an (open-sourced!) GUI abstraction layer, so the porting effort would have been mostly difficult to applications that didn't move tot that yet.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Larian View Post
                        My games seem to work fine. Just saying...
                        Bullshit. Screenshots of all the Loki games running in Ubuntu 12.04 or it didn't happen.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by JohnXfce View Post
                          Why all those dudes of Xorg and nuveaou and others combine their effort to actually support nvidia and amd properly without intel. So that we can have completely tearing free desktops and completely tearing free video playback with real sync to vblank. None of the drivers from nvidia or amd provide tearing free desktops and completely tearing free video playback so the whole discussion of dma buffer or other switching is completely pointless as none of those companies provide any working linux drivers whatsover. So switching between one non working shit and another non working shit is not an issue. The issue is a LACK of tearing free desktops and LACK of completely tearing free video playback and LACK of real sync to vblank in any configuration. Period.
                          dude i get tear free desktop and tear free video with the radeon driver for years ?

                          i do have a hd4770. i play games like hon in wine and baldursgate in wine ans stuff like that.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by JanC View Post
                            Several "recent" Adobe applications have been using an (open-sourced!) GUI abstraction layer, so the porting effort would have been mostly difficult to applications that didn't move tot that yet.
                            Link? My googling only found that Photoshop Elements apparently uses Qt.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by yogi_berra View Post
                              Bullshit. Screenshots of all the Loki games running in Ubuntu 12.04 or it didn't happen.
                              Neverwinterknights run fine without problems on my Arch (x86_64) , ok its no Loki game but it has nearly the same age of the old Loki games.
                              When you have the Loki Compat Librarys you can run every old Loki Game i got even the old beta version (0.9.12) of World of Warcraft runnung.
                              For sound i used padsp when the game dont used OpenAL like, with Simcity 3000 or World of Warcraft.

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