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The Biggest Problem For A Linux PC Vendor

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  • #31
    Excuses

    What kind of excuse is that?

    What about desktop computers that doesn't have Optimus?
    What about laptops without discreet graphics (AMD Fusion APU, Intel Sandy Bridge)?

    Just offer the laptop on both Windows and Linux. If the user needs optimus or any other technology not offered by Linux, then they can get it with Windows instead.
    Then at least people have a choice.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by birdie View Post
      You failed to spot the word "proper".
      For Linux PC vendor who want to ship laptop with hybrid graphics this days there is no other option except Radeon.

      Originally posted by birdie View Post
      Proprietary NVIDIA/AMD graphics drivers don't support KMS/VirtualFB and lag in features implementation (proper and full Randr support
      Where is Catalyst and nVidia Rander support is not full? Tell me right now.

      Originally posted by birdie View Post
      Unlike in Windows, sound in Linux often doesn't work for dozens of applications. And I don't want to Google why this or that application is muted. It's a major f* up. Fire up Quake 2 binaries under Linux. Can you hear anything? No. So, shut the f* up.
      Blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-fuck-blah.
      Sound may be buggy in Windows too, especially in professional applications and with drivers for professional hardware (for example Linux drivers for E-Mu series is better - check e-mu threads on ixbt yourself).

      Originally posted by birdie View Post
      Nothing is yet resolved.
      Blah-blah. I check this myself few months ago and this bug is actually resolved.
      So now you will prove your words.

      Originally posted by birdie View Post
      Speak for yourself. I can stand for everything that's written there.
      No, you can't, and I just prove it on three examples what I give.

      Originally posted by birdie View Post
      it's not a place for pesky trolling
      Why you still here then?

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Michael L
        Poor open-source drivers? ...
        ... none of these ...
        ... it all comes down to one feature at this time: NVIDIA Optimus.
        ...Under Linux, the level of NVIDIA Optimus support is a shit-wreck.
        Ehm. Driver situation, none of these ... but then drivers for NV Optimus driver support doesn't work and that's the problem.
        Huh?

        Anyway. (regardless of me being a fan of "the other company") Who intends to use that Nvidia crap? Sorry but actually NV fooled especially the notebook vendors for years with their faulty chips (knowingly!) and now they present tech that doesn't have proper system wide support? Hell, why use that stuff? Just give NV the boot until they wake up and come with a better offer. Nvidia doesn't want to play with Tux so leave them alone. They can't leave it all to the nouveau devs to reverse engineer over 8 years another generation of chips.

        Comment


        • #34
          I want to share my experience:

          ASUS U36SD - i7 - GEForce GT520M
          Xubuntu 64bit - 12.04
          wine 1.5.3

          bumblebee last version via PPA.

          All this to say i can play Eve Online via bumblebee(optirun) -> wine perfectly. This is the command (i report it so everybody can see the complexity of the low level software activations that can run for hours very smoothly):

          Code:
          $ optirun wine explorer /desktop=EvE-Tranquility,1366x728 "C:\\Program Files\\CCP\\EVE\\eve.exe"
          i can completely survive with optimus and the good work of bumblebee guys.

          Comment


          • #35
            Pure Q1 was without opengl, do you really want to play those or a newer engine

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by birdie View Post
              Even though this says it's the 2012 version, I think a tremendous number of these problems are already solved or are no longer applicable, for all intents and purposes. In other words they shouldn't even be "green"; they shouldn't be on the list at all.

              1. Old sound apps -> In almost all cases, the response should be, "Who cares? Stop using them! Move on to something else!" If they're proprietary, time to ditch them! If they're open source, ask around if someone can help port the code to libpulse. If you will physically die or lose hundreds of thousands of dollars (or more) in revenue without them, then it's worth your time to install OSS Proxy, which uses Character Device in Userspace (CUSE) to provide a userspace implementation of /dev/dsp and /dev/mixer which re-routes the audio to pulseaudio. If you can't be bothered to follow instructions that take you 5 or 10 minutes to complete, when the benefit is that you won't die or you'll not lose hundreds of thousands of dollars then you have no business using a computer in the first place. For the remaining 999,999 / 1,000,000 users who don't need old sound apps, this bullet point is completely irrelevant and for historical purposes only.

              2. Bug 12309 -- IMHO this is totally resolved, I haven't had this problem for years. I remember when I had it, and it was awful, but it's been fixed since at LEAST 2009 if I recall correctly. To the maintainer of that website: Stop drudging up old problems that only 0.0000001% of the people (if any) still have, and calling them "big problems" or reasons why Linux isn't ready. Every OS has its niggling flaws, but this is HARDLY a showstopper when almost no one experiences this anymore (the cgroup scheduling work largely fixed this; have you tried make -j40 while surfing the web lately? Yeah, it works fine with zero lag. So STFU.) Also, the site says "under some circumstances GUI becomes unresponsive". Well yeah, no shit sherlock. Show me an operating system with a GUI that has ever been made which is physically incapable of becoming "slow and unresponsive" under "some circumstances". EVERY algorithm, EVERY finite resource has corner cases where it will be pathetically slow and inefficient. It's the nature of the beast. For every slow case that I've seen on Linux, I can point out a dozen of them on each of the other major operating systems.

              3. "Linux security/permissions management is a bloody mess: PAM, SeLinux, Udev, HAL (replaced with udisk/upower/libudev), PolicyKit, ConsoleKit and usual Unix permission (/etc/passwd, /etc/group) all have their separate incompatible permissions management systems spread all over the file system. Quite often people cannot use their digital devices unless they switch to a super user." This is not practically a problem on modern distros. The only time you get tangled up in the security mess is if you go dicking around with it, break something and have to figure out how to fix it. If you don't mess with it, you'll be fine. BTW, you can unleash similarly awful problems on Windows if you randomly change registry settings or mess with file ACLs or disable services or...

              There are some points on that list which I totally agree with, but they are few:

              1. No high quality open source NVIDIA and AMD drivers - Yep, exactly. This is the biggest one for me. By "high quality" I mean every piece of the GPU works, all of its acceleration capabilities are unlocked and integrated into the OpenGL and OpenCL runtimes, and typical workloads can utilize a large percentage of the available compute / rendering power.

              2. The complete OpenGL stack cannot be legally implemented in/imported into Linux because many OpenGL features (like S3TC texture compression and floating point textures) are patented. -- Yep, exactly. This isn't our fault at all, but it is a problem we have to deal with.

              3. Incomplete or missing support for many power saving features modern laptops employ (like e.g. PCIe ASPM, proper video decoding acceleration, deep power saving states, etc.) thus under Linux you won't get the same battery life as under Windows or MacOS and you laptop will run a lot hotter. -- Yep, exactly.

              4. "No unified... blah blah" (related to distros) -- Yep, exactly.

              5. "A very bad backwards and forward compatibility." -- A problem we can and should address!


              Overall that list has a few cherry-picked valid points, but I don't think any of them are nearly as relevant as the fact that Linux isn't ready for the desktop because no one knows about it. Its lack of popularity / the public's lack of awareness (or the general perception that "Linux is hard to use") is its major reason for low adoption rates. Basically, you have to be known to be known -- you have to have money to make money -- it's one of those chicken and the egg / catch 22 problems. The majority naturally tends to remain the majority, and the minority naturally tends to remain the minority, simply because word of mouth and human nature's "monkey see monkey do" tendencies prevent us from thinking outside the box.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by allquixotic View Post
                1. Old sound apps -> In almost all cases, the response should be, "Who cares? Stop using them! Move on to something else!" If they're proprietary, time to ditch them! If they're open source, ask around if someone can help port the code to libpulse.
                Either that, or uninstall pulseaudio.

                Whichever is easier.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Well pa is not that bad when you need oss support, then you can use "padsp app". Often apps ship with a very old openal lib, in many cases not with the default name. You can compile a new one or symlink and you hear something. That's usally better than using padsp. Of course you need a 32 bit lib for 32 bit apps...

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by birdie View Post
                    1) This tiny webpage has nothing to do with this SLOR mess.
                    Aha, good, but the problem is - it looks like SLOR mess. Sorry, but these are words from someone who never saw you page. It has something with quality of information there.

                    Originally posted by birdie View Post
                    2) Would this page look more respectable if its author afforded a second level .com domain? Hardly so. Do you want to pay for it? Hell, no. So stop pointing to petty details which have nothing to do with the fact that ...
                    Yes, a bit. But it is more a combination. Lets see:

                    Cheap spam-host + wrong provocative content + SLOR style.

                    It combines.

                    Originally posted by birdie View Post
                    3) if Linux cannot run the hardware for which you've shelled out your hard earned dough, will it fucking matter for its target audience? F*, no. "Linux doesn't work", will say a punter and he's right, because the Average Joe just won't give a flying f* who's to blame for this ugly snafu.
                    TRY HARD to understand this for the last time. I even write it in bigger letters.

                    BECAUSE COMPANY REFUSES TO SUPPORT ITS DEVICE ON LINUX, DOES NOT MEAN LINUX IS NOT CAPABLE OF RUNNING IT.
                    IT MEANS - A COMPANY IS NOT CAPABLE TO SUPPORT LINUX. IT IS PROBLEM OF THE COMPANY, NOT OF LINUX.


                    Think: Windows Does Not Write Drivers!!! Guess who does it for them? Following your logic, WINDOWS IS NOT CAPABLE TO USE ANY DEVICE!

                    Originally posted by birdie View Post
                    At this point I'm ceasing my presence in this thread because it has drifted in the direction I'm not interested to discuss.
                    Well, feel free to come back and comment. Btw, which "direction"? Direction that I explained above?

                    Originally posted by birdie View Post
                    Quake 2, oh, sh*t! even the original Quake 1 binaries work just fine under Win7. But that's beside the point. I'm not going to argue with the people who don't really use the computer.
                    Oh, sh*t, I havenīt commented on this one.
                    Quake 1 RUNS perfectly on DarkPlaces! And how it runs! And btw, DarkPlaces runs Quake1 on Loose7! Opensource ftw?!

                    Originally posted by birdie View Post
                    I'm done with trolls.
                    So, you correct or remove your trolling webpage?

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by allquixotic View Post

                      1. No high quality open source NVIDIA and AMD drivers - Yep, exactly. This is the biggest one for me. By "high quality" I mean every piece of the GPU works, all of its acceleration capabilities are unlocked and integrated into the OpenGL and OpenCL runtimes, and typical workloads can utilize a large percentage of the available compute / rendering power.

                      2. The complete OpenGL stack cannot be legally implemented in/imported into Linux because many OpenGL features (like S3TC texture compression and floating point textures) are patented. -- Yep, exactly. This isn't our fault at all, but it is a problem we have to deal with.

                      5. "A very bad backwards and forward compatibility." -- A problem we can and should address!
                      I comment on these cherry picked, because they appeal valid to you, yet are completely invalid in my opinion.

                      1. Windows: Does it have open source drivers? No, it does not. Linux has - half-arsed, half-shining - but it has. It also has proprietary versions. Who looses?

                      2. Windows: Does it use opensourced OpenGL stack? What stack is used by Windows? Closed source. For patent reasons. Same thing is used in Linux binary blobs. Is this limitation of Linux? No - it is limitation of software patents that cannot be integrated into opensource solutions. This means currently software patents are reason for development slow-down. Does this apply due to Linux? No.

                      5. Windows addressed this problem in variety of ways: Stable ABI = Lots of malware. Multiple copies = "DLL Hell" and later "Library Hell" - reason why vista and up use up to 5x more space, and more compared to XP with "Dll Hell". Also, this too adds to "Lots of Malware", since windows does not have ONE fixed stone to build upon, but MULTIPLE broken ones. Software, that is built and works on Bugs and Holes - this is Windows Compatibility. Every sane person understands that software MUST be supported over its lifecycle and it is impossible to produce anything "backward compatible" without actually PLACING CONSTANT effort to have it. This "effortless compatibility" would work only if two things suddenly apply to software development AT SAME TIME:
                      a) Development freezes
                      b) Current versions are flawless
                      Which is utopia!

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by allquixotic View Post
                        Even though this says it's the 2012 version, I think a tremendous number of these problems are already solved or are no longer applicable, for all intents and purposes. In other words they shouldn't even be "green"; they shouldn't be on the list at all.
                        Just to add a few more "problems" on that list that are solved or incorrect:

                        - AutoCAD/3D modeling equivalents: there are already two very good native CAD programs, BricsCAD and DraftSight. The first is closed-source and commercial but very very similar to AutoCAD, and the second is also closed-source but free and it's a little bit different from AutoCAD. Blender is absolutely brilliant, but it's not 3DS Max so it will require learning something new if the expectation is that it is 3DS Max. Also I suppose no one is born knowing how to use 3DS so there was a learning process in there as well.

                        - Android is not Linux: Doh! Of course it isn't. Something like "Android is not Ubuntu" might be more appropriate, since Linux is only the kernel that sits in the middle of both Operating Systems.

                        - It is perfectly possible to do serious graphic/photographic work on linux-based distros. I have been doing that for the past year perfectly fine.

                        - The No Games part really cracks me up That whole paragraph seems to really be "Big companies don't port their latest titles to Linux, and I don't consider games older than 5 years as real games. Oh yeah, and I only consider something to be a game if it runs with wine, so all the native indie titles out there aren't games."

                        - I won't bother commenting the "General Linux problems" because it has so many incorrect and false statements that it would take me a while.

                        BTW, that page says it's not a Linux vs. Windows page, but in reality a lot of issues raised there are "Windows does this, Linux doesn't", like inability to run windows programs in linux... I can also come up with a list of programs that run in linux-based distros but not on windows :P The conclusion from reading that page is that whoever wrote it expects Linux-based distros to be just like Windows, and since they aren't he complaints mostly about the differences.
                        Last edited by devius; 05-10-2012, 07:32 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by devius View Post
                          Just to add a few more "problems" on that list that are solved or incorrect:

                          - AutoCAD/3D modeling equivalents: there are already two very good native CAD programs, BricsCAD and DraftSight. The first is closed-source and commercial but very very similar to AutoCAD, and the second is also closed-source but free and it's a little bit different from AutoCAD. Blender is absolutely brilliant, but it's not 3DS Max so it will require learning something new if the expectation is that it is 3DS Max. Also I suppose no one is born knowing how to use 3DS so there was a learning process in there as well.

                          - Android is not Linux: Doh! Of course it isn't. Something like "Android is not Ubuntu" might be more appropriate, since Linux is only the kernel that sits in the middle of both Operating Systems.

                          - It is perfectly possible to do serious graphic/photographic work on linux-based distros. I have been doing that for the past year perfectly fine.

                          - The No Games part really cracks me up That whole paragraph seems to really be "Big companies don't port their latest titles to Linux, and I don't consider games older than 5 years as real games. Oh yeah, and I only consider something to be a game if it runs with wine, so all the native indie titles out there aren't games."

                          - I won't bother commenting the "General Linux problems" because it has so many incorrect and false statements that it would take me a while.

                          BTW, that page says it's not a Linux vs. Windows page, but in reality a lot of issues raised there are "Windows does this, Linux doesn't", like inability to run windows programs in linux... I can also come up with a list of programs that run in linux-based distros but not on windows :P The conclusion from reading that page is that whoever wrote it expects Linux-based distros to be just like Windows, and since they aren't he complaints mostly about the differences.
                          OK let's comment upon your arguments:

                          - I'm glad that other CAD solutions exist, but AutoCAD is by far the most popular and used one. It's de-facto for many applications and industries and there's no way you can avoid DWG in certain situations. Does it work under Linux? No. Will people try to install Linux just because for them it's all new and shiny? No.

                          - Android is not Linux. Fine, you have just reiterated this.

                          - Photoshop and Corel Painter are the two most used instruments amongst photographers in the world. You can argue ad infinitum that GIMP is usable, but GIMP offers a completely different workflow, lacks many crucial Photoshop features, and people just don't want to learn new instruments when there are the proven ones which work excellently (I don't even want to touch the topic of proprietary RAW formats support in Linux or lack of it - do you really think people will break their heads to make RAW files usable just because Linux costs $0? The OS cost is negligible for most people. Their professional instruments costs thousands of dollars and those instruments don't work in Linux).

                          - It's difficult to realize for you but there are people different than you and such people want to play triple A games without too much hassle. They want to play their favorite games and absolutely most of them are not available natively for Linux.

                          - "incorrect and false statements" - would you care to be more specific? Or your stance is, "I don't like what's written there so it's wrong"?


                          Stop deluding yourself, people won't try Linux when basic things in Linux don't work or they are in a half-working state (sound robustness/hardware support/lack of consistency - Gnome3/Unity f*ck ups just to name a few).
                          Last edited by birdie; 05-10-2012, 08:29 AM.

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                          • #43
                            I have to agree with the others. It is not the fault of Linux that AutoCAD, Photoshop, Painter are not on linux, it's the fault of Autodesk, Adobe, and Corel.

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                            • #44
                              Artem as expected give answers only for most easy question.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by curaga View Post
                                I have to agree with the others. It is not the fault of Linux that AutoCAD, Photoshop, Painter are not on linux, it's the fault of Autodesk, Adobe, and Corel.
                                Does it matter whose fault it is since people just want to work with their OS? I really cannot understand why people always want to find someone to blame for.

                                Do you know why ISVs shun Linux? That's because Linux is the area of total instability and lack of any guarantees in regard to APIs and libraries versions. And that's where Linux sucks. Strangely RedHat with their RHEL does understand that.

                                So, instead of changing development policy people keep on shouting out loud that it's not Linux, it's ISPs that don't want to release drivers/software for Linux. They really don't want to, because they don't want to employ dozens of programmers just to make sure their software keeps working years after its initial release date. ISVs cannot afford such luxury (in fact they can, but they don't want to make the money fly). In Windows, once released, you are pretty much guaranteed that your application will work for at least 6-10 years.

                                So, don't blindly agree with others. Start thinking. Of course, it's extremely difficult to argue when you are surrounded by fanatics and zealots.

                                Originally posted by RussianNeuroMancer View Post
                                Artem as expected give answers only for most easy question.
                                Reason with me, instead of uttering something totally disconnected with the topic of our conversation, and I'll likely comment upon.
                                Last edited by birdie; 05-10-2012, 09:17 AM.

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