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  • #46
    Originally posted by Dragonlord View Post
    @divideoverflow: I assume you never had to "work" with steam or source in any way. The problems are numerous ranging from steam killing entire games by doing incorrect updates, not being able to redownload games since steam is "stuck" somewhere thinking it's installed but then again not and fuck shit, over SDK dying all the time killing your projects too over to rallying your CPU up to 100% for not fucking sane reason.

    As mentioned, good idea, horrible execution.
    You are correct. Last time I went near code or a compiler in any serious manner was about 10 years ago. Then again, I've read complaints about many SDKs. . and even entire languages and IDEs. I'd have to have personal experience developing for Steam and Valve to agree or disagree with you. /shrug

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    • #47
      Hahah. Wow. Checking for a word on a page... I remember those days. Protection was cracked on those too. I had Atari ST disks like that.

      I do think SOME kind of DRM should be implemented. For the other reasons stated before. Take it from everyone to a select group that does it anyway. The problem is that a viable implementation doesn't exist. I don't know how effective LGP's will be, and Steam as someone said before is just a good idea with bad execution. I haven't had the joy of a bad install or an update screwing up *knock knock* (although I have had problems with execution in Cedega).

      Dragonlord: What gaming user would run their Linux Gaming Rig hiding the config, it's mainly used for servers, right? Unless Ubuntu (for reference) does this by default.
      I do see both sides of this actually, I just wonder about the types of people that would do this. Think of the target audience, they'll either be on low-latency (for the hardcore tweakers) or default rigs.
      Do you have any ideas on implementation? (If one had to do it...)

      Can't a binary be compiled with PIC? That should increase the security somewhat. Wait... that's memory management...

      Gentoo compares it's downloaded files against multiple hashes, any chance we could to that?

      * emul-linux-x86-soundlibs-20080418.tar.bz2 RMD160 SHA1 SHA256 size ;-) ... [ ok ]
      * checking ebuild checksums ;-) ... [ ok ]
      * checking auxfile checksums ;-) ... [ ok ]
      * checking miscfile checksums ;-) ... [ ok ]
      * checking emul-linux-x86-soundlibs-20080418.tar.bz2 ;-) ... [ ok ]

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      • #48
        Originally posted by me262 View Post
        What gaming user would run their Linux Gaming Rig hiding the config, it's mainly used for servers, right? Unless Ubuntu (for reference) does this by default.
        One answer: Ubunutu. Another answer: People hate tainted kernels ( at least those with a sense of pride). The kernel is not meant to be tainted and DRM would be a total taint since if it's source compilable for the user it's open doors for automated hacks. But even a loadable module can be hacked. Make your own DRM module which just does yes-its-ok all the time and load this instead of the real DRM module. Again this can be automated. And you can not force people to compile it into the kernel. Heck even if you could force them they would just have to download a crooked DRM module and inject it in the kernel ( again doable in an automatic way ). The tech savvy level of the user is not important. It's like with CD cracks. Majority of users of those cracks have no idea how this DRM form works nor how to bypass it. They just execute an binary doing all the work for them and tadam! DRM be gone.

        Do you have any ideas on implementation? (If one had to do it...)
        Of what now? The DRM module itself of a crack attempt of it?

        Can't a binary be compiled with PIC? That should increase the security somewhat. Wait... that's memory management...
        PIC ( aka Position Independent Code ) simply juggles the functions around in code segment to avoid function hijacking. This would make a crack attempt more difficult since you can not hardcode the code offset. That said you can scan the file for the function pattern and then you know where to inject. The WindowsXP Anti-Register crack for example used this method. It scaned login.exe for a pattern and could always find the right location to nop out on various versions of login.exe . So that's not impossible and would be done since it's a crack-once-crack-all situation.

        Gentoo compares it's downloaded files against multiple hashes, any chance we could to that?
        Two solutions to this. Either tamper with the source files and use ebuild to recreated a valid manifest or make a local overlay and copy the ebuild over doing the same as before ( just that this time it is not going to be overwritten the next time you sync ).

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        • #49
          Originally posted by divideoverflow View Post
          As for dumping Steam on people 10 to 15 years ago, don't forget that Internet access was not nearly as common back then either
          Knew I should've put a disclaimer about that. :P Even going on using the best method of contact for verification of the time, just the concept of what it does is the the problem. Back in those days, when we got games we (including my family, who aren't the most technically minded people around) were pretty annoyed with having to have the CD in the drive to play some games (and some of those the games even had valid reasons for that, such as streaming videos off the CD that weren't installed on the HD because of limitted space). Now such a thing is common place and general people think nothing of it.

          Most piracy took place between people that knew each other, and P2P networks were a gleam in Shawn Fanning's eye.
          A good bit of piracy back in those days was of bootlegged copies (physical copies made by someone en masse, and *sold*, with a sizeable discount). Something much worse, IMO, than most sharing going on today. People actually made money from those copies, whereas with today's piracy "problem", not that many people actually gain from distributing it.

          Even with all of that being said, let me reiterate and clarify that I do not like the use of copy protection or DRM, I simply understand it and why companies use it.
          I can understand why, as well. I have no problem with companies trying to protect their assetts, but when it's protection to the degree that is done today (assumed guilt, constant reverification, requiring unneeded insecure software, etc), when we don't even know what kind of losses are being caused by all this sharing (if any!).. there's a problem.

          I would however be upset if Valve went under, and nothing was done to allow legitimate customer to continue using what they purchased.
          Wouldn't it be better to actively prevent such a thing from happening, instead of waiting for it to? No company lasts forever. The question is when, not if. The longer you wait, the less likely something can be done about it.

          And it wouldn't even take Valve going out of bussiness. It would just take Steam becoming more of a money sink than a money source, so they shut down the servers.

          I also judge whether or not I will even want to play the games I purchase 10 years down the road, at a time when I see it much more likely for Valve to go out of business (not for any particular reason, rather just that any company can go out of business, given enough time).
          I still enjoy playing games made 20 years ago. Sometimes I'll just get nastolgic and throw on a quick game of something I haven't played in forever, just to remember what it's like. I just like to make sure I can keep doing that.

          Concerning buggy or insecure device drivers, can you give an instance where Steam required anything like that? We're not talking about StarForce, after all.
          It's not just Steam. It's the whole mind set that these kinds of things are okay. Trying to find a word is a bit different than having to hack a device driver, or getting a pre-hacked executable from an unknown source. Steam itself isn't the only problem, it's just becoming (already is?) a large part of it.

          I am curious; what do you do about it? Do you just not purchase games from Valve? Perhaps you try to convince Valve of these points you are making to me in the hopes that they will remove their draconian copy protection and authentication?
          I don't buy any games from Valve. My system has never known Steam, and never will. And me saying this to Valve will likely accomplish nothing, since other, much more prominant, people have been complaining about these things for a long time.

          But even if Valve themselves did stop, other companies that distribute through Steam would continue, and Steam would be made to work with it. Again, completely remove the need for server checks when starting a(ny) game, and remove the need to be running to start a(ny) game, then we'll talk about how good Steam could be.

          Call me a pessimist, but I don't see it happening unless Steam gets much worse than it currently is, and people prefer to avoid purchasing Half-Life 3 just to avoid Steam.
          That's the problem. Put a frog in boiling water, and it'll jump out. Put a frog in cool water and slowly turn up the heat, and it'll cook to death. Unless Valve makes a slip up and introduces some form of DRM that's too much for people at the time, they won't avoid Steam as the DRM problem gets worse.

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