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  • LinuxGames has a QuakeCon recap...

    One of the key take away items here would be:

    Question: What are your current views on the Linux situation [...]?

    Answer: I can’t say I have really high hopes for it. If Quake Live does well, Mac is our next target on that, but I would not be shocked if we wind up with a Linux target on there. It’s an under served community [...] and I’m happy to see Quake Live there. It is unlikely that the big titles [Wolfenstein, Rage, Doom 4] will have anywhere near simultaneous releases. If one of the guys internally says I want to go port to Linux on my weekend or whatever, I’ll be supportive of that, but it’s not something we’re probably going to devote company resources to on there.

    The bright spot for Linux on gaming might be Android, mobile space. There’s still no real sign that that’s going to take off, but if it does that could be a significant and useful thing. People wrote about the death of PC gaming, but PC has problems relative to the consoles, but all of those problems that the PC has are just an order of magnitude worse on the Linux space. So it’s not really a good target.

    Every year or so somebody comes up with or plans some Linux-based set-top box that has gaming features, and it never really amounts to anything, and I don’t see any conditions that are going to be forcing that to change in the future. There are certainly aspects of it that I would like, there’s Linux on my flight computer, it’s a good tool for a lot of things. And it might make a useful tool, more so than being Linux, there’s nothing that I think Linux would bring to a console operating system, but there is something that open source would bring to it: those two days that I spent frustrated about my deadlock against Microsoft’s video codec on there I’m sure could’ve been solved much more rapidly if all of it was actually completely open. But there’s nothing that really bothers me about Microsoft or some of these operating system levels there; they’re done competently. Linux would probably bring more trouble than benefits to those things. If the world changed and there was a huge uptake of Linux on PC’s all over the place, it’d be nice, I wish the platform well, but it’s not even on our radar right now for our current projects.
    (The following is representative of MY views and does not reflect any entities' views such as LGP (for which I have a tag on my name here in this forum)...)

    Rage will happen for us, but only on their time- and WE, the people out there using Linux, have only ourselves to blame.

    Why do I say this?

    Each time you lot goes and bitches about the "age" of a given game or compares the price of the Windows version versus the Linux one and bitches about that you do yourselves and everyone else a serious disservice. We're being watched. And this is the results of some of that sort of thing.

    Spare all of us the "more money" line, folks- it's not valid, really. Do you think iD cares about a piddling 1000-2000 users' worth of money? In their minds, that's about all they think they can sell based off of what people can publicly see and the past performances we've given them in this area (Q3:A only sold 200 copies for the official Linux version because of the kinds of thinking I've seen espoused in these forums...)- which makes it not worth their while. The main reason he's been doing Linux titles is that it made sense to make the stuff cross platform and we were an underserved market. Unfortunately for us, we also seem to be an arrogant and ungrateful one as well, presuming that we're entitled to stuff.

    You're NOT their customer. At best, you're a user of their software if you're using one of their official or unofficial platforms they've chosen to target.

    Their customer is the publisher.

    The publisher's customer is the retailer.

    When you buy from a retailer, they don't care about what OS you're running- they're selling you a little box with a bit of paper and a bit of plastic in it, that purportedly does something when it is stuck into a Windows or MacOS based machine or a console.

    So we've got over 30 million users worldwide. Great.

    How many of that are willing to buy games? Hundreds? Thousands?

    If it's not the same scope and scale as the Mac crowd has been (and we're not there, gang, because of that sense of entitlement we all seem to have here...) they're NOT going to be interested, being a seriously underserved community and all. They've got to see a return on things and for most players, they're not seeing anything except a LOSS from making stuff for us.

    What we've shown is that we're not interested in buying games- and in a manner that leads people like iD to not consider us being on the radar and like Epic who's delayed the release now some 10 months if we even SEE the thing in the case of UT3.

    Spare me conspiracy theories of Microsoft. Sure, they might have had SOME hand in Unreal not being in our hands- but it's unlikely all the same.

    We're our own worst enemy, if you honestly want to know the truth. This is the fruits, folks, of the "it's too expensive", or "it's too old", or "that tanked" lines of thought and the resultant actions.

    You run Linux. WHY would you ever want to run a Windows title?
    In the infancy of things right now, WHY would you ever commit an infringement on a given title?

    Because you can? Because you can't be bothered to hold off for a better situation or to get an actual native binary? Because the game's "too cool" and you can't stand not being able to run it?
    Because you don't think the game's worth the price, either because the Windows version is cheaper than the Linux version or "you've already bought it"?

    Each time you use WINE for a contemporary game you vote for Windows, even if we're as large a userbase as we think we are.

    Each time you buy a Windows SKU and "convert" it to Linux when there was an official Linux version, you make a vote for Windows.

    Each time you choose to make an infringement of a current selling Linux title, you're actually HURTING things- yes, I know it's a no-sale, but the problem is when the "no-sales" comprise what would have possibly made for a break-even or a profit sufficient to get the next and cooler title that might have sold, you defeat yourselves. The people doing the infringements seem to think it was worth spreading around- but not worth enough to buy. Each time someone does this, it gives the impression, right or wrong, that we aren't interested in buying games. Moreover, it lends the impression, right or wrong, that we're more interested in infringing upon their rights that paying the money for things...

    Look well at this folks. This is the fruits of all of our labors here.

    Just at the moment we're winning one fight for things, we're losing it for at least the next 3-5 years or more on the gaming front.

    Because of the things I've just said.

    I hope all of the people that are guilty of the aforementioned things are PROUD of themselves. They're succeeding in doing for Microsoft what they couldn't do otherwise- deep sixing gaming on Linux for some time to come.
    Last edited by Svartalf; 08-16-2008, 11:19 AM.

  • #2
    Are you finished with the lame ranting? Sorry to say this but it's a long time since I read such a garbage. Over at the Escapists there's a nice article about "game industries lies" or let's call it "excuses". People who do not support a platform and then go moan about the platform not having users is hypocritical. What we need is "action" and "solutions" not "excuses" and "fighting-problems-instead-of-solving-them". Sure Linux is not the same mass as Windows but if any minority ( no matter how small or big ) on Earth would be genocided would you call this "correct" or "their own fault"? Here it's the same. The AAA companies fight with daggers and swords against Linux so what we need are people taking up the weapons and fighting back with solutions instead of running from them. Attacking the common user unable to change something is plain utterly wrong.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Dragonlord View Post
      Are you finished with the lame ranting?
      After seeing what has happened and why, I don't think it's as lame as you're making it out to be. I'm just having a bad day, I guess. It's still a problem with the people that have posted (You're NOT one of them, mind... ) in the forums in the past. We seem to have a contingent that seem to think they're entitled to games and that we matter right at the moment to the studios.

      Sorry to say this but it's a long time since I read such a garbage. Over at the Escapists there's a nice article about "game industries lies" or let's call it "excuses". People who do not support a platform and then go moan about the platform not having users is hypocritical.
      I believe that was what I was railing at. People that don't support the platform and we're not talking about the studios.

      And I'd hesitate to call it "garbage"- just look in the forums at things that were said in the LGP DRM thread and elsewhere in the Games section. I posted what I posted because I do know something about why Mr. Carmack stated what he did at QuakeCon- I've actually worked with the man in the past on other projects... I know what actually happened with Quake3:Arena for the Linux and Windows versions. And as someone wise once said, those who fail to understand history are doomed to repeat it. We're doing the same silly decisions as a community over and over again.

      What we need is "action" and "solutions" not "excuses" and "fighting-problems-instead-of-solving-them".
      I'm trying to do that in the other thread, actually...

      And it's not excuses, unfortunately. What I've said is based off of watching this for about a decade going now.

      The AAA companies fight with daggers and swords against Linux so what we need are people taking up the weapons and fighting back with solutions instead of running from them. Attacking the common user unable to change something is plain utterly wrong.
      Unfortunately, it's not that the companies are fighting us as much as some of the antics of the people I called out are leading them to believe that we're irrelevant- and then the people in question keep bitching about not having any good titles and going and doing the same things to cause the feedback loop we're in to start all over again. I've watched it happen for the Linux community for the last decade (Yes...decade...I've been a user and developer for much longer than that, really- just not in the games space save for the last four to five...). You may not see it because you're a late comer, but it's all the same- same crap, different year.

      And the common user being unable to change something is bunk as well- if my rant's "garbage" your using that line makes your counter one just as much so... They're able to change a LOT of things- they just don't know or realize that they've got all sorts of power.

      For example...

      The RIAA and their member companies that they represent are only able to do the crap they do right now because they're flush with cash from people buying their garbage. Each person infringing or buying their stuff perpetuates the network effect that put them into this financial power they have. Not buying their stuff would be a good answer, because most of it's tripe anyhow.

      But people keep buying and infringing all the same- all the while they keep buying laws that erode all of our rights we had in the past. All the while they keep bullying people that don't even use their stuff, accusing them of "downloading" even when they don't even HAVE a computer to download. All with that money we keep putting in their pockets.

      In this case, if we were to use your position you just espoused, you'd say they were unable to change things (This is your own words that you chose, Dragonlord...)- that we just have to live with the reality of it all. You and I both know that this isn't the case- and more and more people are going with Indie bands for their music listening as they're better and they don't have the same strings attached as the RIAA labels' performers' stuff does.

      Powerless/unable to change is facing a tornado or a hurricane at the moment the storm arrives or being in an earthquake.

      Anything else is a choice up to that point.

      It's no different with games, really. THAT is what my rant was directed towards. Forgive me if I wasn't clear with it- I'm very frustrated upon reading what John had to say about all of this morning after trying to get things better for so long with people working counter to what honestly needed to happen. We need to have two things happen to fix this.

      I'm working on the answers in one of them- which is asking my potential users/customers what they actually WANT and trying to sort through the expectations and give them things that will be appealing to them. I hope to have the deals on a few here shortly. If so, I'd consider that a win. I'm hoping to actually kick-start a lively Indie space where it really does work for them to make cross-platform/Linux-only titles with what all I'm doing, in addition to bringing some cool niche and Indie games over.

      The other is to work at trying to get people to realize that they're not so important as they think they are to the big players. That the griping about Linux being such a large user base does not map to the things they're seeing in addition to it all.

      Why make a Linux version if the WINE version "will do", even if it's a poor answer for us? There's no good reason for them to do anything but Windows titles- and we keep buying the Windows titles to run under WINE, especially when there were native clients that got kiboshed by the publisher (WoW is a good example of this...), which sends the message that it's okay. But, yet, everyone keeps saying that this isn't okay. So, which is it? And it's not unable to choose as you describe it. Yes, choosing to not play might be unpalatable, but if you play you tell them it's okay to make more Windows clients.

      Why make a Linux version when the Linux versions of other games are getting pirated 5 to 1 over purchases? This isn't discussing their reasons (Which have been hashed out over and over elsewhere and while I don't agree with much of any of their reasons, it's still their thinking the users seem to be using...) this is discussing that ratio. With those sorts of numbers, if you're a studio doing Windows games, would YOU do a version in that space, knowing what they're doing right now? I sure as Hell wouldn't.

      In both of those cases, and in what I ranted about, it's not that people can't change things. They can- they're just choosing to not do so and then mouthing off about everyone snubbing Linux and all.

      Comment


      • #4
        You know what, Dragonlord...

        Afrer re-reading it all, I think we're both right, but both taking a bit too extreme a position.

        You stated you're a developer. Are you with a studio?

        If so, what kind of title are you working on and what state is it in? Would they be interested in an additional developer helping make more than the rendering code (you're obviously a GL guy... ) work on a purely royalty basis for the sales of the Linux titles?

        If not, are you working on an actual title? If so, would you like some assistance on the title? If so, I'm game if you're willing to take my bitchy backside on with you. If not, I may still have publishing contacts to get the title in the channel for you without having to pay that "price" many other studios do.

        We need to quit having people do the things I've bitched about.

        But, perhaps, I need to, now that I've got it off my chest proper, drop it (unless we want to keep debating the subject...).

        And, perhaps, we both ought to fully step up to the plate and do what you propose. I've already got the start of it going on several fronts. What do you have to offer as well?

        Comment


        • #5
          I've got nothing against a constructive discussion. After all this puts mature people aside fro crybabies.

          I'm with you what goes for the garbage out there being it now in music or games. I'm also for indie bands or in this case indie developers and they are what I work on a solution for. I do not think that people have a chance out there. The reason for my point is that making a game involves a couple of things starting with an engine over getting a full team assembled down to distribution and finally support. What goes for distribution and support this can be boiled down to simple things or provided by the community. It's therefore not the stumble stone. The main problem are the former two. A useful engine ( and I fiddled around with a couple of free engines before I decided to do what I do now ) with AAA quality costs a hell of bucks. This prevents creative people and indies from getting an innovative game up and running. What goes for the consumers I do not think that they have a lot of choices. You can not go and buy a Linux game since the clients are lacking or not existing at all. You can not buy the Windows game but the big mass of casual gamers takes what is on the shelf and most of them have a Windows machine ( with preinstalled OS ). So not buying those games ( or pirating them as another viable but not problem solving solution ) by the pro Linux people is not going to put a noticeable dent in their income stream. This is why I consider the customers ( those in minority ) helpless and why I think it's not fair to shout at them. Granted some are the gimme-free people who pirate anything but they do this also for Windows games. They are anyways not going to change and in my world view they are marked as "calculated losses". Instead of shouting at them I prefer to rally up those who have the skills and the will do do something.

          I had been a bit harsh at you in my post. Guess I had a bad day too ( yeah, Saturday... this IS a bad day for me ). I can understand the points of you two ( you and John ). I do anyways no more expect the big companies to get the hang on Linux. I'm confident that the indies have to win this war before the big companies start to venture there.

          About me I'm indie. I do not have an official studio although I attach my work to a limited partnership company I'm in which is in the hand of my family. I'm currently working on two projects. The first one is writing an AAA grade game engine with full cross platform support and a new approach on maintenance ( what I call OS Type or Run-Time Modularity ) under the GPL. The main goal is to give creative people an engine which gives them access to the needed firepower to turn their visions into reality without having to deal with the behemoths game engines became over time. The second project is an entire game build on this engine where I want to take a step away from the mainstream crap jolted at gamers. I started out the project under the promise to make it a free game ( sort of make-yourself-known title ) so I run it as a community project ( but I kept the option open to go commercial should I ever get a real team up ). I started the work on the individual projects ( including not mentioned ones ) roughly 3 years ago. Before that I did modding and messed with engines to learn how they work. So my main work is the game engine at the time being. I set the goal to get it out this year. That's my contribution to solving one of the problems with Linux gaming.

          Comment


          • #6
            NEWSFLASH!!!!

            1) Apple users bitched an complained just as loud and as verbose as linux users and they are getting games now.

            2) Windows/Mac users suffer from greater piracy then linux, but yet they get games.

            3) Saying buying a game for wine is a vote for windows is a cop out. EA started using cider and games started being ported faster NATIVELY to OS X then at any time in it's history from other companies. Next gen are all going to be native.

            4) Lately, anytime a closed source developer has asked the opensource community to make a accomodation for the closed source community they have responded with a "f*** you" response. It's a game of give and take. Something the FOSS community seems to have forgotten. Establish your marketshare before making demands.

            5) What there is for piracy on linux games, sorry to say this but it is TRUE, is because the games ARE overpriced but more importantly for the mass is the ONLY way they can get them. Piracy of games on linux is more from lack of availability then it is the "screw you, I'll take it for free"

            6) Linux with it's inherant moving target makes it a PITA to ensure a working product across the vast selection of implementations out there. Perfect example is X. Christ there is a new memory management every week it seems. Submit the code, next week pull the code.

            7) Developers have a fallback that they can call upon with Win/OS X. You don't have to post a question in a mailing list hoping it didn't get lost in the kerfuffle of 10.000 other mailing questions.

            Sorry but these are reality checks. Out of everything I probably use Windows the least, I keep it around for 2 reasons, 3dsmax and gaming. 90% of the time I'm in OS X or linux (I'm not a big gamer, more on development (for myself or clients usually). I DO talk to commercial developers on a daily basis and the above reasons are what I get thrown back at me the most from them when I ask "Any plans for a linux port?" .

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Svartalf View Post
              One of the key take away items here would be:



              (The following is representative of MY views and does not reflect any entities' views such as LGP (for which I have a tag on my name here in this forum)...)

              Rage will happen for us, but only on their time- and WE, the people out there using Linux, have only ourselves to blame.

              Why do I say this?

              Each time you lot goes and bitches about the "age" of a given game or compares the price of the Windows version versus the Linux one and bitches about that you do yourselves and everyone else a serious disservice. We're being watched. And this is the results of some of that sort of thing.

              Spare all of us the "more money" line, folks- it's not valid, really. Do you think iD cares about a piddling 1000-2000 users' worth of money? In their minds, that's about all they think they can sell based off of what people can publicly see and the past performances we've given them in this area (Q3:A only sold 200 copies for the official Linux version because of the kinds of thinking I've seen espoused in these forums...)- which makes it not worth their while. The main reason he's been doing Linux titles is that it made sense to make the stuff cross platform and we were an underserved market. Unfortunately for us, we also seem to be an arrogant and ungrateful one as well, presuming that we're entitled to stuff.

              You're NOT their customer. At best, you're a user of their software if you're using one of their official or unofficial platforms they've chosen to target.

              Their customer is the publisher.

              The publisher's customer is the retailer.

              When you buy from a retailer, they don't care about what OS you're running- they're selling you a little box with a bit of paper and a bit of plastic in it, that purportedly does something when it is stuck into a Windows or MacOS based machine or a console.

              So we've got over 30 million users worldwide. Great.

              How many of that are willing to buy games? Hundreds? Thousands?

              If it's not the same scope and scale as the Mac crowd has been (and we're not there, gang, because of that sense of entitlement we all seem to have here...) they're NOT going to be interested, being a seriously underserved community and all. They've got to see a return on things and for most players, they're not seeing anything except a LOSS from making stuff for us.

              What we've shown is that we're not interested in buying games- and in a manner that leads people like iD to not consider us being on the radar and like Epic who's delayed the release now some 10 months if we even SEE the thing in the case of UT3.

              Spare me conspiracy theories of Microsoft. Sure, they might have had SOME hand in Unreal not being in our hands- but it's unlikely all the same.

              We're our own worst enemy, if you honestly want to know the truth. This is the fruits, folks, of the "it's too expensive", or "it's too old", or "that tanked" lines of thought and the resultant actions.

              You run Linux. WHY would you ever want to run a Windows title?
              In the infancy of things right now, WHY would you ever commit an infringement on a given title?

              Because you can? Because you can't be bothered to hold off for a better situation or to get an actual native binary? Because the game's "too cool" and you can't stand not being able to run it?
              Because you don't think the game's worth the price, either because the Windows version is cheaper than the Linux version or "you've already bought it"?

              Each time you use WINE for a contemporary game you vote for Windows, even if we're as large a userbase as we think we are.

              Each time you buy a Windows SKU and "convert" it to Linux when there was an official Linux version, you make a vote for Windows.

              Each time you choose to make an infringement of a current selling Linux title, you're actually HURTING things- yes, I know it's a no-sale, but the problem is when the "no-sales" comprise what would have possibly made for a break-even or a profit sufficient to get the next and cooler title that might have sold, you defeat yourselves. The people doing the infringements seem to think it was worth spreading around- but not worth enough to buy. Each time someone does this, it gives the impression, right or wrong, that we aren't interested in buying games. Moreover, it lends the impression, right or wrong, that we're more interested in infringing upon their rights that paying the money for things...

              Look well at this folks. This is the fruits of all of our labors here.

              Just at the moment we're winning one fight for things, we're losing it for at least the next 3-5 years or more on the gaming front.

              Because of the things I've just said.

              I hope all of the people that are guilty of the aforementioned things are PROUD of themselves. They're succeeding in doing for Microsoft what they couldn't do otherwise- deep sixing gaming on Linux for some time to come.
              Burned out and jaded arent we this morning? See? Thats what occurs when you try to sell games on a platform only suited for network servers.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by deanjo View Post
                4) Lately, anytime a closed source developer has asked the opensource community to make a accomodation for the closed source community they have responded with a "f*** you" response. It's a game of give and take. Something the FOSS community seems to have forgotten. Establish your marketshare before making demands.
                I'd like to see proof of this. Many system libraries are put under the LGPL (or even a less restrictive) license, because people felt the GPL was too strict. This has allowed closed source developers to use them without issues. Quite a few people use closed source graphics drivers to power the closed source games, as well. Users and hackers (the good kind) give self support for closed source products, and welcome input from their developers.

                6) Linux with it's inherant moving target makes it a PITA to ensure a working product across the vast selection of implementations out there. Perfect example is X. Christ there is a new memory management every week it seems. Submit the code, next week pull the code.
                None of which should have a significant negative effect on applications (in fact, I'd wager that such management changes are for making applications run *better*). Applications/games just need to code to the APIs they've selected.. ABI compatibility has been a non-issue with most libs for a while now, and changing the underlying implementation doesn't affect standard APIs.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by deanjo View Post
                  1) Apple users bitched an complained just as loud and as verbose as linux users and they are getting games now.
                  They also BOUGHT what was offered to them at what prices it was FIRST- we're not. Not a valid remark, deanjo- and you know it.

                  2) Windows/Mac users suffer from greater piracy then linux, but yet they get games.
                  Numbers are larger but the ratios are MUCH smaller. They don't HAVE five to one ratio.

                  3) Saying buying a game for wine is a vote for windows is a cop out. EA started using cider and games started being ported faster NATIVELY to OS X then at any time in it's history from other companies. Next gen are all going to be native.
                  If that were the case, deanjo, why don't we see the stuff for us- cider's intrinsically winelib for MacOS. Since we don't, that's a NULL argument. Transgaming's been flogging the abstraction lib play for Linux and MacOS for some time now. If they're doing it for MacOS, why can't they do it for Linux? Because of the shifting target perception? Heh... It's not hard at all to do it and you're using the same tools for MacOS in the large.

                  4) Lately, anytime a closed source developer has asked the opensource community to make a accomodation for the closed source community they have responded with a "f*** you" response. It's a game of give and take. Something the FOSS community seems to have forgotten. Establish your marketshare before making demands.
                  Actually, what they've done is asked for unrealistic things in many cases. What they asked for was intrinsically asking Microsoft to open up Windows to use an analogous thing- DRM is a problem. And it's not been a "f*** you" that they've gotten as much as a "no way- that's not how things get done" and then a counter proposal was given. LGPL is one of those "concessions" that was given. There's been others. And this has less to do with the FOSS community saying anything of that nature (considering that a game doesn't run afoul of a lot of this) and more to do with perceived dollar amounts.

                  5) What there is for piracy on linux games, sorry to say this but it is TRUE, is because the games ARE overpriced but more importantly for the mass is the ONLY way they can get them. Piracy of games on linux is more from lack of availability then it is the "screw you, I'll take it for free"
                  Won't argue that, but in the same breath, they're cutting their nose off to spite their face- which is what I was getting at.

                  6) Linux with it's inherant moving target makes it a PITA to ensure a working product across the vast selection of implementations out there. Perfect example is X. Christ there is a new memory management every week it seems. Submit the code, next week pull the code.
                  Okay. You need to just DROP that FUD. It's not at all hard to target that "moving target" as the API is all you should concern yourself with- if it doesn't change semantics and it's use doesn't change, it will work across a wide range of Linux distributions and kernel/X11/etc. revisions out of the gate. How you basically do this is that you pick X11 (which the memory management might cause X11 bugs, but if you're not using X11 and OpenGL...), you use autopackage's autobuild to pin the glibc version to 2.1, you statically link libstdc++, and then the rest can be dynamically or statically linked as needed. At that point you have a stable binary (your game or other code being stable, that is...if it's not there, it's not there for any platform, really) that will run on Debian Woody and most everything else out there.

                  You've been able to do that now for the LAST SIX OR SO YEARS.

                  7) Developers have a fallback that they can call upon with Win/OS X. You don't have to post a question in a mailing list hoping it didn't get lost in the kerfuffle of 10.000 other mailing questions.
                  ROFLMAO! Do you HONESTLY believe that one? Have you EVER relied on that "fallback"? I have. It's not any better than the mailing list answers- and I always seem to find the results I've looked for in a timely manner for the last 12 years now.

                  Sorry but these are reality checks.
                  They're nothing of the sort, deanjo.

                  Out of everything I probably use Windows the least, I keep it around for 2 reasons, 3dsmax and gaming. 90% of the time I'm in OS X or linux (I'm not a big gamer, more on development (for myself or clients usually). I DO talk to commercial developers on a daily basis and the above reasons are what I get thrown back at me the most from them when I ask "Any plans for a linux port?" .
                  To be sure it's they're what they see with Linux- doesn't make it true or the reality of the matter. The reality is quite a bit different- what's needed is trying to shift the perceptions. Something, I daresay, based on your remarks, you don't even try doing. I get told differing things, really, when I ask. Nothing like what you threw out. I get told the things I keep griping about. Perhaps there's two sides to this, but the reality of the matter is, it's all about the perceptions of the people in question. And Dragonlord's right. You're going to have a fun time of it trying to convince them of anything because of the stuff I've pointed out going on and the perceptions of the things you've pointed out (which are not true, but with the other crap going on you're not going to even get them to listen to you...). We've got to quit worrying about AAA titles from people like Epic and iD (if they make it for us, great, if not, it's just a damn shame...) and go after getting the Indies to make stuff for us.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by xav1r View Post
                    Burned out and jaded arent we this morning? See? Thats what occurs when you try to sell games on a platform only suited for network servers.
                    ROFLMAO... Yeah, I was a bit over the edge upon reading what John Carmack had to say on things.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by deanjo View Post
                      1) Apple users bitched an complained just as loud and as verbose as linux users and they are getting games now.
                      Oh yes, apple users bitched. They bitched a lot. The difference between the bitching by apple users and Linux users is simple:

                      When apple users were bitching, they were simply not buying the game since there was *no* way to run it. That is at that time (yes, it was before the switch to x86 when EA started shipping eg C&C Generals for mac) they had nothing like wine. When they had no PC beside their mac, they had no way to run the apps. So they did not buy it. Some publishers saw that there is a demand, a group of players who did not buy a single copy. So they started to support it and got a raised profit from it.

                      For Linux it does look a little different. That is many users do bitch loud. This is identical. What is not identical is that users do buy the game since they either dualboot with Windows or run it in wine. Both were no options for Mac users in the days when they really bitched.

                      Since the Linux users (at least parts of them) buy the game anyway, even if there is no native binary (no matter if compiled against winelib or how it is done), why should the publishers change their view? How large are the numbers for those Linux users, who would buy the game when it is released natively for Linux and not when it is not? The studios don't see this as a too large cut in their profits, so they don't see a need to change things.

                      If just those who buy the games to play them using wine would *not* buy unless there is a native binary, this might already help a little. Though the publishers will then probably just say "hey, our sale figures dropped, shame on you pirates!".

                      The only thing that counts for the big players in the market is money. So far they have no seen that they really make more profit when supporting Linux and they just look at what they think who much they could lose by supporting it. Lose as in "hey, normal copy protection will not work, everyone will pirate it anyway" and "hmm, we have to invest money to port and later on to give support, which callcenter does also give support for Linux without charging insane prices?".


                      I do understand Svartalf being upset about things since with the current attitude by many players things are unlikely to change. Yes, the prices are rather high compared to windows releases of the same games since those are often in budget range when the Linux binary is out. Even if they (unintentionally) run nicely in wine, you are using a Windows product and thus support the creation of Windows products. Nowaddays PC gaming is largely Windows based. It is sad, but that's the way it is. You don't have too much choice when you want to play those AAA games from the big publishers. The only thing you as players can do is talk to indie studios to offer native ports. They are more likely to be nice to you. Some of those indie games are really nice products and often the price is affordable, too.

                      Unless maybe a big player like valve makes an offer for Linux and show the other big publishers that there is a big market to conquer things are unlikely to change. That is either many small studios show that they can gain a great profit from supporting those "special" platforms or one of the big players is brave enough to give it a try. I don't think that those ports of "released long ago" games will help a lot to show the big players that there is a market. It will just cater some smaller need for some core Linux users. I really appreciate this, but I do not think it will change the big picture. The players feel that the games are out too late and as such "totally outdated".

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                      • #12
                        If just those who buy the games to play them using wine would *not* buy unless there is a native binary, this might already help a little. Though the publishers will then probably just say "hey, our sale figures dropped, shame on you pirates!".
                        Followed by "PC gaming is dying, lets focus on consoles!" That'll help.

                        Unless maybe a big player like valve makes an offer for Linux and show the other big publishers that there is a big market to conquer things are unlikely to change.
                        id Software, Epic, and Bioware weren't big enough? id has supported Linux for a long time (weren't there Linux ports of the original Doom? and even if it may not be "commercially supported", I'll be surprised if we don't see official native Linux binaries for Rage and Doom4), Epic has supported it since gobbling up what was left of Loki until this UT3 fiasco, and Bioware made at least Neverwinter Nights for Linux (one of the expansions even came with a (broken) Linux installer on-disk), which they were still providing patches for until just last month when they stopped patching the game altogether.

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                        • #13
                          Wine is detrimental to the adoption of Linux by third party developers (i.e. 99% of ALL commercial software) because it allows them to develop for Windows and say to use wine.

                          This is not a problem of wine itself, but a problem of all compatibility layers. It is often said that the DOS compatibility layer in OS/2 hastened the demise, as many software developers simply developed for DOS, and as a result people were more inclined to buy DOS, as the programs just worked better on it.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by deanjo View Post
                            NEWSFLASH!!!!

                            1) Apple users bitched an complained just as loud and as verbose as linux users and they are getting games now.
                            Two observations to this MacOS users point:
                            • Like Svartalf said, these same users (though there has undeniably been piracy as well) did buy the products (not only games, mind you, but apps in general) at whatever price was requested at release.
                            • MacOS users also had the benefit of God Almighty Steve Jobs pouring a hefty sum of cash to get at least some of these games on MacOS (from what I've seen there are rumours stating as much as 1 million per title to some studios). I've not heard some Linux-enthusiast millionaire or company willing to make such an investment (and yes, by that I mean Mandriva, Novell, Red Hat or Mark Shuttleworth)

                            Edit
                            Just wanted to clarify that the alleged pour of money from Jobs (or Apple) for games, was with the migration to the x86 architecture.
                            Last edited by Thetargos; 08-18-2008, 01:42 AM.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Dragonlord View Post
                              Are you finished with the lame ranting? Sorry to say this but it's a long time since I read such a garbage. Over at the Escapists there's a nice article about "game industries lies" or let's call it "excuses". People who do not support a platform and then go moan about the platform not having users is hypocritical. What we need is "action" and "solutions" not "excuses" and "fighting-problems-instead-of-solving-them". Sure Linux is not the same mass as Windows but if any minority ( no matter how small or big ) on Earth would be genocided would you call this "correct" or "their own fault"? Here it's the same. The AAA companies fight with daggers and swords against Linux so what we need are people taking up the weapons and fighting back with solutions instead of running from them. Attacking the common user unable to change something is plain utterly wrong.
                              That Escapist article wouldn't be done by Zero Puncuation would it? It sounds like his tone...

                              I do want to offer my arguments again as well.

                              - Linux just came on the big-league market for pre-installed computers courtesy of Dell. Windows and Apple have a long lead on us. For simplicity I'll use a running race analogy. MS is using steroids and has now run out. We're starting to see the after effects of that ill-gotten gain (the fact they had to have a commercial to toute Vista SP1 is proof). Apple burst out of the gate, got a good lead, fell flat on their faces, and is now back up and running, trying to catch up to MS. Both MS and Apple are in it for the prize at the end. We've been pacing ourselves, but we're in it for the fun, not the prize (although it doesn't hurt). We expect that MS and Apple will run out of breath and we'll just zoom by them, keeping our pace, with MS and Apple struggling to keep up.
                              -- I wonder how many analogies can be applied that fit...

                              - The industry situation definitely is a catch-22. There has to be a market before there can be a market. Some of the small time games may help, but a lot of people are looking for more recent games that they will enjoy. I like the quote about some companies stepping up to the plate, leap of faith and all.

                              - The main reason that prices are so high on the Linux developed stuff, is that the studios have to try and recoup the prices they paid to get access to the code they ported. The Windows games have been out so long, everyone has been paid fairly thuroughly, and they can afford to drop the price, now that they have recouped their costs.

                              - There are moral people in the downloading community. Why do you think gamecopyworld has continued to exist? I had to go there all the time because I ran a CD-Less gaming system for some time. Heck, I still have the data stored on an external hard drive on my desk!

                              - There are people spearheading (and oddly enough, the pun wasn't intended) a drive to change the industry's thinking on the matter, Svartalf is one of them, Icculus is another, but he is being stringed by Epic. I hope to be too once I finish school (Thanks for helping with ideas for my X-platform IDE, Svartalf, I'll be setting it up soon, I'm procrastinating because I don't have my EVDO card set up in my Windows partition yet).

                              - From what I read on the first post, Carmack may not officially support it anymore, but he won't stop any of his office staff from porting it on their spare time. He's still for it, but I get the feeling it's coming off to him as more of a hassle nowadays it seems. Chances are someone will take him up on that. I know I would.

                              - The Windows emulation is definitely killing us. What we can't run natively, we can emulate. I'm lobbed into this group because of game popularity. I most likely will be getting Starcraft II, and unless there's a Linux native binary, I will most likely be using Cedega to play with my friends. It's one of those "We'd love it for our system, but we'll settle for second rate emulation". This is causing the numbers to skew very badly, against us. We don't have a relation with the developer or the publisher. We have a relation with the retailer selling us the game. The shop I saw selling Quake 3 for Linux was the only package I saw, and I have not seen a "for Linux" game package after that. I agree we need better distribution.

                              - I cannot begin to recall all the posts I've seen asking for a linux native binary. A lot of them also say that "if this comes out on linux, I won't need to dual-boot to Windows anymore". This goes back to the leap of faith part. More people will abandon Windows if their favorite games can be made on Linux. Even more piercing is the arguments "The server doesn't count.", "It's leveraging Linux stability for an otherwise unusable game.", "Let the unstable software run on their unstable servers.". These definitely do hurt our image by saying if we can't have it, we don't want it, period. Problem is, someone always does want it, there is a market, see leap of faith. The only way I see it is that it has to be developed in parallel, or it's hardly worth it.

                              - People can change things, right now. That's the beauty of Linux. You don't like it, you write it. Unfortunately this attitude is also part of the problem.

                              - There's more... but I'm tired, and it's light out again.

                              - Svartalf, you have every right to be upset, I am too, but I am not in direct view of your looking glass (I don't know most of the data that you have).

                              - I think we need to take a step back and survey the situation. What we can do to increase support? (Get the product to the retail store shelves. Any more?)

                              ... not bad for someone up at 6:16a EDT and hasn't gone to bed yet... ^_^
                              Last edited by me262; 08-18-2008, 06:50 AM. Reason: Swords daggers and spears oh my! (an analogy, an idea, and cleanup)

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