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LGP Introduces Linux Game Copy Protection

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Svartalf View Post
    Did you think I didn't know all of this?

    The problem is selling the retail chain on it as much as anything else.


    Do you want to know what happened with Civilization: Call to Power's sales? They were to be storefront at several differing locations. I barely managed to score the ONLY copy that Electronic Boutique had in the store in my area- they didn't restock it afterwards.

    Do you want to know what happened with the Ultimate Quake pack that came out just shortly before Q3:A was supposed to come out (Around June-July of 1999...)? It never showed up in ANY of the stores it was supposed to be in.

    We've already gone into part of the problems with Q3:A's sales- did you know that it was also supposed to be storefront in many places and only managed online or sales via Fry's or Micro Center and in limited quantities?

    All three of those instances were because the Managers of the store chains get to select what gets delivered to them to a point, inventory-wise, and they couldn't grasp the difference between the Linux SKU, or if they did, they didn't want to deal with the hassle of Windows users buying the wrong SKU.

    It's no different now.

    The only way you're going to see what you're describing is if you have Linux exceed the critical mass level and end up forcing the issue and pushing Windows stuff out of the floor space.

    So if your going to force people to purchase games with copy protection via snail mail why not do the smart thing to increase your profits. F*ck the box, load up a torrent of the game and sell the serial. Hell even put up just the binary as an alternative option if they already have the game to download because you don't have to worry about the packaging/shipping costs and people get rather instant gratification from their purchase. Saving all that money on not having to press DVD's and packaging would only make it that more profitable or you could also just pass those savings on to the consumer.

    If your going to force the customer to be authenicated online there is no need to charge the consumer for the expenses of a retail box.
    Last edited by deanjo; 06-23-2008, 07:01 PM.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by stan.distortion View Post
      http://www.bit-tech.net/gaming/2008/...re-interview/3
      its about half way down, reading through it now.
      actually the bit I was referring to is (second link towards the bottom)
      ...We do it because the people who actually buy games don't like to mess with it. Our customers make the rules, not the pirates. Pirates don't count. We know our customers could pirate our games if they want but choose to support our efforts. So we return the favor - we make the games they want and deliver them how they want it. This is also known as operating like every other industry outside the PC game industry...
      you need to read that parts around it as well...

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      • #63
        Originally posted by miles View Post
        Svartalf, it might be that I'm just plain stupid, but I see some contradictions in your comments.
        They're only contradictions in that I've no say in the DRM thing...

        You're saying (and I agree with that up to a certain extent) that people should vote with their wallet and not send the wrong message by buying games for Windows if their OS is Linux (and if they also would like to see games developed and ported to Linux).
        Indeed. The DRM thing's kind of blind-sided me a bit- otherwise everything is as you claim it is.

        On the other hand, you're trying to present LGP's decision as dictated by the need to offer game protections to get the rights to port certain games (I wouldn't say it's the obvious reason when reading the quotes in Phoronix' article).
        Some of it is that. Some of it is that we've been seeing evidence of piracy for some time now. I've had discussions with Michael Simms on the subject and this rancor he saw in the beta list and we're seeing now is something I warned him about. Unfortunately, if they're not seeing as many sales as they're needing and seeing piracy (and this IS the case), either he folds up shop or does something like this.

        Now why doesn't LGP (and you if you help porting these games to Linux) vote where there mouth is by sending the right message and only porting games when publisher don't endorse copy protection schemes?
        I help on some of them, yes. Unfortunately, you don't get the luxury of picking and choosing who gives you access to what. Many of the studios are reasonable. The publishers, typically, are not. I'm about as anti-DRM as you get, really. No Blu-Ray. Put off getting a PS-3 so far because of that DRM.

        You could say that there wouldn't be any games to be ported, but that's not what gamers' experience on the Windows side tell us. Egosoft, like I said, has a very nice policy about copy protection, and I can't imagine they would ask LGP to play harder than they do on Windows. Egosoft isn't the only company doing that - just thinking about Stardock there. Here is a company (Stardock) that are a successful Indie developer, cares about their customers, and is run by people proud of their games, and you're telling me they wouldn't want those games ported on Linux?
        Heh... Stardock used to think Linux was a waste of time. Got that straight from their President when I'd offered to port some of their stuff in the past before I got associated with LGP. Egosoft, I'd have to concur- but with Michael making the decisions he's making, I don't know... I don't like the idea, and in this, I'm not speaking on behalf of LGP.

        I'm not so much defending the decision as reacting in shock and dismay to the remarks, their color and content, in response to the news that LGP is instituting DRM. I would rather that Michael DIDN'T do this, but I'm not in a position to gainsay the whole deal. Moreover, there's been enough remarks about things of this nature in one day that would lead a businessman worrying about his bottom line with Copyrighted works to consider doing DRM in spite of the uproar we're seeing.

        Unless I see in plain writing letters or emails showing that LGP has asked Star Dock if they could port Sins of A Solar Empire for Linux, and Stardock refusing because there's no copy protection in Linux, how do you expect me to believe LGP (or you) when they say the only reason only old games are ported to Linux is because the publishers are against it?
        In this case, I suspect that it's that they want a bit too much money. Most of the situations are of that nature. I can't think Stardock insisting on DRM, but I could Id, Epic, 3DRealms, etc.

        Are these good games to ambitious for LGP? Does LGP know they couldn't handle it? Does LGP give those publishers the impression they couldn't handle it? Maybe. However, who can believe it's because those developers/publishers are against anyone porting those games for Linux?
        Oh, it's not even close to that.

        Got $50-75kUS? You probably could get Stardock to allow you access to the code for that. However, keep in mind, that doesn't buy you the right to PUBLISH that work- that's just the money to license the right to port the code. It's probably another $10-15k for a 3k unit run- at the very least. Got a $100k burning in your pocket? You too can publish a game.

        Isn't LGP actually doing with copy protection the exact thing they/you blame people that by Windows games to play them through wine? If LGP is doing it when it has the choice, who can blame gamers that DON'T have a choice? LGP can chose other games to port, gamers OTOH are stuck with no alternative when they want to play certain kind of games.
        No. And I've little idea how you conflated WINE with DRM...

        DRM regulates access to a given title.
        WINE allows you to run WINDOWS binaries on a Linux box.

        DRM doesn't make a vote for more Windows titles.
        WINE does.

        I've not said you shouldn't use WINE. If there's no port possible or likely, it's the only way- and I've said as much. But buying titles this way perpetuates the problem. I've pointed that out to get people to think about what they're doing.

        It's when there's a native version for Linux and a Windows version that the real problem occurs. Sales figures are part of what is making the figures I'm quoting you up above for porting so ridiculous and making it difficult to get "nice" or "new" titles.

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        • #64
          It just happens at every thread, now does it?

          LGP's copy protection system though would force users to go online, wouldn't it?

          I used to work on Linux software house and the management beat on us to put in a copy protection mechanism on the software. It's really how the commercial world works. These businessmen are interested in protecting their investment. If something is sold in the software world, eventually, the business thinks about the protection of their sale. Unfortunately for us, this means Game Copy Protection in the case of LGP.

          Deal with it and move on. It's here to stay, as far as I'm concerned. You don't like it? Don't buy it.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Svartalf View Post
            No. And I've little idea how you conflated WINE with DRM...

            DRM regulates access to a given title.
            WINE allows you to run WINDOWS binaries on a Linux box.

            DRM doesn't make a vote for more Windows titles.
            WINE does.
            DRM makes a vote for DRM titles. The fact they're from LGP doesn't even change anything - buying these titles from LGP would be a blatant vote for DRM.

            WINE doesn't make a vote for more Windows titles if you're buying a second-hand title from somebody that finished the game or didn't like it (and yes, it's LEGAL. If you don't want to support Windows titles while having no other choice because there's no Linux equivalent, buy it second hand NOT from a shop so you don't count as a Windows consumer for anybody). However I still think it's important to encourage SOME Windows developers when they're producing risky highly original content - Indie developers or even big names that go in the right direction, while telling them you'd pay twice the price if they released a Linux version.

            Oh, and yes - you don't like DRM, don't buy it / don't pirate it either. Which is what is going to happen here too.

            I'm not going to say I'll never buy X3 (if the copy protection is on par with Egosoft's) - I'm an Elite fan after all, but I tried the demo a while ago and it just didn't click at all. I'm going to try the Linux demo again then decide. Meanwhile EVE ONLINE HAS A LINUX CLIENT! (just saw that tonight)

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            • #66
              You don't like it? Don't buy it.
              True, money talks in this day and age but a lot of money-man are a bit to set in their ways to listen. The bit-tech interview was interesting, sales increasing BECAUSE there is no DRM must be causing a bit of a stir. How long will that last though? Nine Inch Nails waved two fingers at DRM recently by giving away the first of a 2 CD set for free and at high bitrate. And $5 for the full CD in FLAC, $10 through the post.
              They did OK out of it, I bought it and know another 15 who did the same, but how long before the novelty wares of and folks turn back to emule? I wish I could believe the morality will last but only a fool would bet on it.
              They only thing that makes sense for the money men behind the games industry is to focus on the consoles and just work on on-line games for PC's. Shame as it will mean more 'disengage brain before playing' ported titles. Means more focus on easily ported games though so it's not all bad.
              cheers

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              • #67
                but I tried the demo a while ago and it just didn't click at all.
                That's a native linux demo or on wine?

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by niniendowarrior View Post
                  It just happens at every thread, now does it?

                  LGP's copy protection system though would force users to go online, wouldn't it?

                  I used to work on Linux software house and the management beat on us to put in a copy protection mechanism on the software. It's really how the commercial world works. These businessmen are interested in protecting their investment. If something is sold in the software world, eventually, the business thinks about the protection of their sale. Unfortunately for us, this means Game Copy Protection in the case of LGP.

                  Deal with it and move on. It's here to stay, as far as I'm concerned. You don't like it? Don't buy it.
                  Quoted for truth.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by miles View Post
                    I'm not going to say I'll never buy X3 (if the copy protection is on par with Egosoft's) - I'm an Elite fan after all, but I tried the demo a while ago and it just didn't click at all. I'm going to try the Linux demo again then decide. Meanwhile EVE ONLINE HAS A LINUX CLIENT! (just saw that tonight)
                    I don't think anyone wants to release another starforce...

                    Originally posted by stan.distortion
                    True, money talks in this day and age but a lot of money-man are a bit to set in their ways to listen. The bit-tech interview was interesting, sales increasing BECAUSE there is no DRM must be causing a bit of a stir. How long will that last though? Nine Inch Nails waved two fingers at DRM recently by giving away the first of a 2 CD set for free and at high bitrate. And $5 for the full CD in FLAC, $10 through the post.
                    I grabbed the NIN cd as well even though I don't normally listen to his music. As for the increase sales lasting? I some how doubt it would last as well because most pirates do it just because they want something for free instead of because they refuse to buy DRM infected games.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by stan.distortion View Post
                      That's a native linux demo or on wine?
                      Wine I would think as the X3 demo for linux isn't out yet.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by miles View Post
                        DRM makes a vote for DRM titles. The fact they're from LGP doesn't even change anything - buying these titles from LGP would be a blatant vote for DRM.
                        Heh... I think you'll find that I see no discrepancy with my thoughts and yours...

                        WINE doesn't make a vote for more Windows titles if you're buying a second-hand title from somebody that finished the game or didn't like it (and yes, it's LEGAL. If you don't want to support Windows titles while having no other choice because there's no Linux equivalent, buy it second hand NOT from a shop so you don't count as a Windows consumer for anybody). However I still think it's important to encourage SOME Windows developers when they're producing risky highly original content - Indie developers or even big names that go in the right direction, while telling them you'd pay twice the price if they released a Linux version.
                        Sorry... You're wrong there. You bought it from someone or someone else bought it. Each purchased item counts as a vote, a network effect item FOR the platform it was written for. It doesn't matter that you bought it or someone else did- it was still purchased, still a vote lurking about for that platform.

                        If you want to help make Linux games happen you're going to have to wean yourself off of Windows games- how you do that is not my concern and I'm not going to tell you how to do it.

                        (If you have issues with what is offered on Linux, for whatever reason, I suggest Nintendo or PS3- but if you've issues with DRM, you can pretty much forego most stuff as it's everywhere...sorry... But, if you chose that route, keep in mind that you're voting for whatever platform you choose other than Windows...).

                        Oh, and yes - you don't like DRM, don't buy it / don't pirate it either. Which is what is going to happen here too.
                        Unfortunately, yes, I fear you're right- which will just fuel the fires just like it's done with the RIAA and MPAA crap.

                        I'm not going to say I'll never buy X3 (if the copy protection is on par with Egosoft's) - I'm an Elite fan after all, but I tried the demo a while ago and it just didn't click at all. I'm going to try the Linux demo again then decide.
                        Fair enough. All anyone would ever ask of a person in this business, really.

                        Meanwhile EVE ONLINE HAS A LINUX CLIENT! (just saw that tonight)
                        Uses WINE to do it- keep that one in mind... The upshot, however, is I think they count it as a Linux sale, so it's okay, just going to have operational issues from time to time.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by stan.distortion View Post
                          Nine Inch Nails waved two fingers at DRM recently by giving away the first of a 2 CD set for free and at high bitrate. And $5 for the full CD in FLAC, $10 through the post.
                          They did OK out of it, I bought it and know another 15 who did the same, but how long before the novelty wares of and folks turn back to emule? I wish I could believe the morality will last but only a fool would bet on it.
                          the music industry gets it's money back with concerts, you can't compare them

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Svartalf View Post
                            Uses WINE to do it- keep that one in mind... The upshot, however, is I think they count it as a Linux sale, so it's okay, just going to have operational issues from time to time.

                            Yeah, and they advertize linux support on the website properly too. It's good.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Licaon View Post
                              the music industry gets it's money back with concerts, you can't compare them
                              Svartalf tried to make it work for LPG too, unfortunately he can't carry a tune.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Aradreth View Post
                                I don't think anyone wants to release another starforce...
                                Save EA...they're into anal probing the gamers, from what I hear. What's another StarFarce DRM fiasco to them?

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