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  • Piracy isn't the solution to any of these problems, you want to play the game you pay for the game simple.
    Those things I listed (sans 1) were solutions to lackluster sales, not problems that people illegally copy because of. I've never bought from LGP before, so I don't know if they are areas that could be improved. In fact, I've not even really heard of LGP until recently. I like their goal, but this level of DRM junk is something that would turn me away (DRM causing lost sales; irony at its finest).

    Just an FYI, there have been no studies showing that high piracy causes low sales. Corelation != causation, after all. So just because you have high piracy numbers, doesn't mean piracy is the problem. Indeed, it could be argued piracy is a symptom of a lackluster game (or some other cause for people not wanting to buy; eg. high price, unavailability).


    On a personal level, I'd say that piracy is ultimately not an issue. If a game is good, people will buy it. Even in this day and age with bittorrent and fast download speeds, people buy games they like. After all, why wouldn't they reward developers for creating something they enjoy?

    I'd say the problem is in the high expectations publishers have for games. Game production values have sky-rocketted, while the sale price has comparitively been stable. But it's a simple fact, 50% of games available are below average. So what happens when a big budget game flops? Admit the game just wasn't worth it the costs, or blame pirating? You won't see big development houses talking down about themselves, nor can you rely on (paid-off) reviewers for a good overview of the quality of the game.

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    • 'After all, why wouldn't they reward developers for creating something they enjoy?' Moral ethics? You've got to be kidding me.

      At most, they thank the torrent creators and crackers.

      (Oh, and, only 3 people have stepped up and said they haven't bought etqw, savage 2, or penny arcade yet. lots more were against this drm on games)

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      • 'After all, why wouldn't they reward developers for creating something they enjoy?' Moral ethics? You've got to be kidding me.
        Then perhaps you can tell me why games are labelled top sellers, while others have lackluster sales (with both being easy to pirate)? Once a game is pirated, it's out there. Doesn't matter how smart the person had to be to do it, or what tools they needed to use. Once it's done, it's done. It's available. Yet people still buy games (some more than others).

        And we can point to bands like Radiohead and Nine Inch Nails when it comes to what people will pay when they don't have to. I really think you underestimate people.
        Last edited by Chris; 06-25-2008, 03:04 PM.

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        • If you get 2 games, one selling better than the other, and both games 99% pirated, one game will still sell better than the other and be "top sale".

          That's great that two bands did this, it really is. But it in no way means that thousands of others are following suit :/

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          • Originally posted by Chris View Post
            Those things I listed (sans 1) were solutions to lackluster sales, not problems that people illegally copy because of. I've never bought from LGP before, so I don't know if they are areas that could be improved. In fact, I've not even really heard of LGP until recently. I like their goal, but this level of DRM junk is something that would turn me away (DRM causing lost sales; irony at its finest).
            The reasons you listed are the reasons often given by people who pirate games.

            Just an FYI, there have been no studies showing that high piracy causes low sales. Corelation != causation, after all. So just because you have high piracy numbers, doesn't mean piracy is the problem. Indeed, it could be argued piracy is a symptom of a lackluster game (or some other cause for people not wanting to buy; eg. high price, unavailability).
            And yet extremely popular games get pirated an awful lot more then crap games.
            http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=1263
            look at the numbers and tell me that it isn't cost the developer money. Note the numbers are from one torrent site on ONE day do you really think all those people will go buy the game if they like it? As for price if you can afford a PC to play those games you should be able to afford the game, lack of money is no excuse.

            On a personal level, I'd say that piracy is ultimately not an issue. If a game is good, people will buy it. Even in this day and age with bittorrent and fast download speeds, people buy games they like. After all, why wouldn't they reward developers for creating something they enjoy?
            That's the most naive thing I've seen in this thread. People who pirate games don't care if the dev's make money and if they can they will try and get it for free.

            nor can you rely on (paid-off) reviewers for a good overview of the quality of the game.
            Maybe a few are payed of but if you look at the majority of gaming/tech sites the reviews are harsh if the games blows.
            Last edited by Aradreth; 06-25-2008, 03:34 PM. Reason: made some things a bit clearer...

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            • And yet extremely popular games get pirated an awful lot more then crap games.
              Because popular games are going to be more well known (thus more people would know of it when looking around). And crap games are crap games, not many people would want to play them.. unlike mediocre games that can be fun and have a audience, but not be enough to cover development costs from the producer overshooting their expectations (it's not like mediocre is bad; it's about average, nothing special but nothing bad).

              look at the numbers and tell me that it isn't cost the developer money.
              Prove to me that they are. And prove to me that DRM and such is going to positively (for the creators) change those numbers.

              You have anecdotal evidence that piracy causes lower sales. I have anecdotal evidence it can help, or at least not significantly impact, sales. But we cannot know without proper studies. And even if we did, the right way to handle it won't be immediately apparent. We do know, however, that people don't like DRM (and certain forms of DRM are illegal in some countries), and the effectiveness of DRM is highly questionable.

              That's the most naive thing I've seen in this thread. People who pirate games don't care if the dev's make money and if they can they will try and get it for free.
              I'm glad you think that.

              Maybe a few are payed of but if you look at the majority of gaming/tech sites the reviews are harsh if the games blows.
              Oh, come on.. you're going to tell me that IGN/Gamespy/etc that rely on advertising revenue from game publishers, don't have their strings pulled in game reviews? And you call me naive.

              If it's known that advertisers can and do pull strings to get favorable reviews for their games, is it such a stretch to believe they can pull strings to get negative reviews for competing games? Sure, some reviews may be honest, but my magic eight ball doesn't help me discern which are and aren't. Thus, they're unreliable.

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              • Note the numbers are from one torrent site on ONE day
                There are an awful lot of assumptions on that review and the overall assumption regarding pirated games and the number of sales lost seems ridiculously high to me. I'm sure folks would like to see proof, well so would I and so (much more importantly) would the game distributors but none of us are ever going to be able to get an accurate figure. In a way I do feel kind of insulted by some of the comments regarding those figures and the assumed lack of morality they are based on, I agree 100% with the poster above who mentioned rewarding dev's for good quality work.
                Cheers to whoever mentioned Savage 2, it looks good but what looks even better is the way they are choosing to distribute it. Free download of the full game, 5 hours of free use as a demo and $30 for a password for a years use. That is a great way to sell a game, no need to even re-install for the full version and if the game is any good then the price is fair, only issue is they should have a torrent for the game, the servers are very slow (I'm guessing they are getting a lot of interest).
                The other (and possibly best) thing about this distribution method is it cuts out all the middle men who are getting fatter and fatter every year while the dev's are getting less and less. This has always been my issue with the music industry, I will pay a very fair price for what, when all said and done, is art but I will be f***ed if over 90% of what I pay is going to PR, solicitors, accountants etc.
                cheers

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                • Prove to me that they are. And prove to me that DRM and such is going to positively (for the creators) change those numbers.
                  The peak number of downloads for a game is just after release so every day the DRM stops people from pirating increases the number of sales as a lot of people are impatient and so will just go out and buy it.

                  You have anecdotal evidence that piracy causes lower sales. I have anecdotal evidence it can help, or at least not significantly impact, sales. But we cannot know without proper studies. And even if we did, the right way to handle it won't be immediately apparent. We do know, however, that people don't like DRM (and certain forms of DRM are illegal in some countries), and the effectiveness of DRM is highly questionable.
                  Actually the developers can see if a game is being pirated heavy or not they just need to see the number of people that download patches or play on line. Sure it's not that accurate because some people don't download and patch and other download it several times but the trend can be seen.
                  Also you might want to look at the number of people downloading console games against PC games. Console games you'll notice get downloaded a lot less and yet they sell more (just go the tpb and search GTA sort by leeches and you'll notice the previous game for the PC is at the top of the list instead of the new game for the 360/PS3)? How could this be? Oh right consoles have to be modded to get pirated games to work. (hardware DRM)


                  I'm glad you think that.
                  I should have said most people don't care.

                  Oh, come on.. you're going to tell me that IGN/Gamespy/etc that rely on advertising revenue from game publishers, don't have their strings pulled in game reviews? And you call me naive.
                  I said most sites, there are always exceptions to the rules. The reason most sites give relatively fair reviews (I wont say ads don't affect the score completely but when they do it wont be by much) is because they rely on readers. If they start giving bad games good reviews people will stop going there and so the site will lose money.

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                  • Originally posted by stan.distortion View Post
                    There are an awful lot of assumptions on that review and the overall assumption regarding pirated games and the number of sales lost seems ridiculously high to me. I'm sure folks would like to see proof, well so would I and so (much more importantly) would the game distributors but none of us are ever going to be able to get an accurate figure. In a way I do feel kind of insulted by some of the comments regarding those figures and the assumed lack of morality they are based on, I agree 100% with the poster above who mentioned rewarding dev's for good quality work.
                    I agree there are a lot of assumptions but consider, if only the pirated copies had been the ones of that day and that site (ha!) it would still have cost ubisoft over $1.25 million (25000 people leeching * $50 a game) I don't care how you look at it that's an awful lot of money.

                    Comment


                    • I agree there are a lot of assumptions but consider, if only the pirated copies had been the ones of that day and that site (ha!) it would still have cost ubisoft over $1.25 million (25000 people leeching * $50 a game) I don't care how you look at it that's an awful lot of money.
                      It is an awful lot of money but it makes the assumption that all of those downloads equate to lost sales. Aside from folks DL'ing the game that may later buy it I would be surprised if 10% of the number DL'ing would but it instead if there was no way of getting the DL'ed copy to work. That 'only' equates to $125000 which in real terms only equates to a shiny new Merc for the CEO, and they tend to get through at least one a year
                      Last edited by stan.distortion; 06-25-2008, 04:50 PM. Reason: EDIT typos again. If you find any more they are DRM-free and you can keep them with my blessing :)

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                      • Originally posted by stan.distortion View Post
                        It is an awful lot of money but it makes the assumption that all of those downloads equate to lost sales. Aside from folks DL'ing the game that may later buy it I would be surprised if 10% of the number DL'ing would but it instead if there was no way of getting the DL'ed copy to work. That 'only' equates to $125000 which in real terms only equates to a shiny new Merc for the CEO, and they tend to get through at least one a year
                        10% you must be joking right? 10% of what was being download from one torrent site one one day? Pull the other one it's got bells on it.

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                        • Originally posted by Aradreth View Post
                          I agree there are a lot of assumptions but consider, if only the pirated copies had been the ones of that day and that site (ha!) it would still have cost ubisoft over $1.25 million (25000 people leeching * $50 a game) I don't care how you look at it that's an awful lot of money.
                          That's a pretty big assumption that all those pirates would have bought the game otherwise. Pirates are like packrats. They download alot of stuff just for the sake of downloading it. If I stand outside and hand beer out for free it doesn't mean that everybody that grabbed a beer would have bought one.

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                          • Originally posted by deanjo View Post
                            That's a pretty big assumption that all those pirates would have bought the game otherwise. Pirates are like packrats. They download alot of stuff just for the sake of downloading it. If I stand outside and hand beer out for free it doesn't mean that everybody that grabbed a beer would have bought one.
                            Considering it's only the numbers from one site on one day you can also assume far more people downloaded it then the figure I used. I know it's not an accurate number but it shows the effect.

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                            • Originally posted by Aradreth View Post
                              Considering it's only the numbers from one site on one day you can also assume far more people downloaded it then the figure I used. I know it's not an accurate number but it shows the effect.
                              Also, one can argue by having the game pirated and allowing people to play the single player game the chances of the person who grabbed the pirated version going out and purchase the game go up, so they can play it online after they have a good feel for the game.

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                              • That's a pretty big assumption that all those pirates would have bought the game otherwise. Pirates are like packrats. They download alot of stuff just for the sake of downloading it. If I stand outside and hand beer out for free it doesn't mean that everybody that grabbed a beer would have bought one.
                                I'll second that, the hard drive industry gets a lot of business from folks who just buy them to fill them up with 'free' stuff that may never even get used. I screwed up with the 'surprised bit, I would expect about 10% to buy a game when they cant get it to work. There is also the assumption that those downloads will be complete in only a few days, that assumes they have the bandwith to do it and that there are enough seeders to get high speeds. Not everyone has the kind of connection where you can watch the bar move on a 4gb download and most of the folks filling up their HD's with 'free' stuff are leeches and hide it away where no one else can get it.

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