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  • #61
    Originally posted by Licaon View Post
    @Michael: since Phoronix and LGP are so close, wouldn't a poll be useful to them? like the one Novell did a few years ago about "the most wanted Windows application missing in Linux" about AutoCAD/PhoteShop and etc BUT the poll will be about games, about what games do we (linux game buyers and players) want to be ported
    You're still thinking that they're going to listen to those numbers.

    Polls mean NOTHING.
    Petitions mean NOTHING.

    You can do them to make you feel better that you tried to make your desires clearer to them. But, in the end, you are NOT a customer to them right at the moment unless you're buying a Windows title- unless of course they make a title for whatever non-Windows platform that you can buy from them. Unless they see that there really IS a buyer's market for Linux, they're just not going to go and make things as long as Windows is so damn profitable- even if it's dead nasty to code for and support overall.

    As for what I've done... I've helped kick-start 3D support (along with the likes of Gareth Hughes and John Carmack...) on Linux. I've done PPC code for Soul Ride, x86 code for Ballistics, and trying to put the wraps on the last couple of bugs in Bandits but real life keeps intruding. Also worth noting, I'm trying to actually do MORE for Linux in the form of trying to lever the Pandora handheld up with some firmware for it and some initial titles.

    You see, I take this VERY seriously. I have for years now.

    And I DO happen to have an insider's view of things to at least some extent. I'm not kidding- if you're buying a Windows title, that's what you're buying. If that's what you want to do, more power to you- but in the same vein, you're not helping things any on the Linux games front when you do this.



    Let me share with you all a moment in Linux history...

    December 1999. It was going to be Linux' shining moment. The coming of age party for all of the efforts up to this point. Part of WHAT I'd signed up for working with the Utah-GLX stuff.

    Quake III: Arena was about to come out. Simultaneously. For ALL platforms. Including Linux. To be sold STOREFRONT for Linux in many locations, much like Civilization:Call To Power had been.

    Because of the business screwups of one Scott Draeker, though, that was BOTCHED.

    Two stupid things the man did.

    He placed a 50k unit order for replication. This means he owed Id over a quarter of a million out of the gate past what he'd wrangled to get the Linux publishing deal. In and of itself, had he NOT fubared the deal with the second stupid thing, he'd have at least broke even on it and we'd not be in the mess we're in right now.

    The second stupid thing he did... He placed a 50k unit order for the same custom tins that pre-orders for the Windows version were getting for the game. That got held up in Customs for about 6-8 weeks, delaying the availability of the Linux version for about the same amount of time.

    The delivery date came: NO Linux SKUs in the stores.

    What did Linux users worldwide do? Rather than wait for the damn thing, they went and bought the Windows version and "patched" it with the conversion binaries Id thoughtfully provided for the people that wanted to switch OSes for their purchase. The official Linux SKU sold some 200-400 units worldwide, officially. I happen to have one of those boxes, FYI.

    Because people couldn't wait, they all sent a damn message that we won't buy games. There's no market for Linux titles. Something we've been fighting ever since.


    When I tell you that the mentality you espouse is the problem, I'm not kidding. It's what caused the mess we're now in. Blaming the publishers that're fighting this uphill battle isn't going to help. Telling me that I'm part of the problem is not really the case.

    [edit]

    As for getting them to figure this out... Heh... Dwindling sales figures for Windows will be enough for them to look at the actual stats for Linux usage and give it a go again. Either that or if you've got 25-50 Million in your pocket burning a hole in it to be an investment in the long-term big picture... Now, that's the current picture. Valve coming to the party MIGHT just shift things more in our favor. Greenhouse and Hothead (if you like Penny Arcade- BUY the silly thing, it's cool...) coming to the party will help as well.

    But you've got to BUY a Linux SKU in some way to make those count.
    Last edited by Svartalf; 05-22-2008, 06:28 PM.

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    • #62
      Usually you buy the game, not game for Win or a game for Linux. I think it is a very good idea when the data files are shared between those - also a former Linux user could play the game then with the other OS. I would not buy a Linux only game, I prefer plattform neutral games. Mainly for OS X you have to buy the game again because you can not get a binary alone - please don't use that as example for Linux games. Online games can report the OS to the server to show the real usage number. As games with unique serial number (with whitelist only on the server) are quite common there is no need for media protection - which is hard to do with Linux and often useless/problematic on Win too. So if possible I would give Linux patches away for free and do not try to sell the same game again.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Aradreth View Post
        I believe Svartalf helps out at LGP once in a while (or full time? I'm not quite sure) and sometimes gets in contact with developers to see if they will let there title be ported for a reasonable sum.
        You'd be right in regards to my role in things Linux Gaming.

        While I would LIKE to be in Ryan's position, that's not practical right at the moment. So I do embedded systems software for Tektronix right at the moment, using Linux as the base OS for my day job.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Kano View Post
          Usually you buy the game, not game for Win or a game for Linux. I think it is a very good idea when the data files are shared between those - also a former Linux user could play the game then with the other OS. I would not buy a Linux only game, I prefer plattform neutral games. Mainly for OS X you have to buy the game again because you can not get a binary alone - please don't use that as example for Linux games. Online games can report the OS to the server to show the real usage number. As games with unique serial number (with whitelist only on the server) are quite common there is no need for media protection - which is hard to do with Linux and often useless/problematic on Win too. So if possible I would give Linux patches away for free and do not try to sell the same game again.
          The only problem with that thinking, Kano, is that the business people don't see it the same way. When you buy a title for a given platform, you're buying it for that platform. You don't get a Windows version and then expect to get the MacOS version- or a PS3 version. Each one is a differing SKU and you don't typically get to move data across- unless you're someone like Id.


          [edit]

          If you could help me make 'em SEE it the way you see it (I would love to have it that way- it's the way it SHOULD be...) this would be awesome.

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          • #65
            @Svartalf: i do agree on your points, 10x for sharing that info with us

            unfortunately the not buying the games strategy still has no real results as far as i can see, buying the Windows version counts as a Windows title, not buying the game doesn't count as anything

            (if you form some Linux gaming front, do PM me to join it, BTW )

            the poll seams to be misunderstood, the poll should only be a reference for LGP, to show them what users want ( they do have such data anyway i bet, since they're doing a RPG now ); and based on Phoronix's popularity the poll should touch some sites beyond LGP and Phoronix itself

            i wish i had better ideas, but boy I'm having less and less time to play, and such non-multi-platform nonsense makes me even sadder

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Licaon View Post
              @Svartalf: i do agree on your points, 10x for sharing that info with us
              You're welcome. I just wish I had better things to tell people

              unfortunately the not buying the games strategy still has no real results as far as i can see, buying the Windows version counts as a Windows title, not buying the game doesn't count as anything
              Actually it does count as something. One less Windows sale. If you think the Penny Arcade Adventures title is cool- BUY IT. If Valve DOES get Orange Box out for Linux, I will be one of the ones at the head of the line to get it. One less Windows sale and one more Linux sale for things ends up, at the end of the day, giving them numbers. But you HAVE to buy some Linux titles for it to work.

              i wish i had better ideas, but boy I'm having less and less time to play, and such non-multi-platform nonsense makes me even sadder
              Just think what it makes me... sigh...

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Aradreth View Post
                I assumed that LGP were porting Sacred to build up Ascaron's confidences to let them touch more popular titles because from what I've seen porting companies tend to start small with each developer then work their way up to better titles as they prove that it's profitable.
                Oh, by the by... You're assuming correct. Keep this solidly in mind, folks, when you make your decisions here...

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Licaon View Post
                  the poll seams to be misunderstood, the poll should only be a reference for LGP, to show them what users want ( they do have such data anyway i bet, since they're doing a RPG now ); and based on Phoronix's popularity the poll should touch some sites beyond LGP and Phoronix itself
                  I don't see much of a poll doing any impact. LGP cannot simply walk up to a publisher and strike a deal. It's something they work to build up. Ascaron's Sacred, I think, is potentially the first of many more titles to come. The more Linux titles, the better. I may not be crazy about some of the titles LGP puts out, but I'm happy they ported them. More titles for Linux gamers mean more purchasing options and if the title is really good, all the better.

                  Somehow, I have built up the image that Linux gamers are fickle-minded, and Linux porting houses have a real thankless job of digging very hard to get a title only to have themselves stabbed at the back by the very people they are trying to cater to.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by niniendowarrior View Post
                    LGP cannot simply walk up to a publisher and strike a deal. It's something they work to build up.
                    Keep repeating that, folks. LGP, Runesoft, etc. can't just get just any old title. You're at the mercy of the studio and in most cases their primary publisher for getting a port. There's a reason why we don't have an official NWN (Yes, NWN...we won't even get into the sequel here...). There's a reason why we don't have the Witcher in any form whatsoever. It's the same thing I keep stating over and over; and a portion of why this is was described earlier in the thread.

                    Ascaron's Sacred, I think, is potentially the first of many more titles to come.
                    There IS a reason I keep on like this in the forums...

                    Somehow, I have built up the image that Linux gamers are fickle-minded, and Linux porting houses have a real thankless job of digging very hard to get a title only to have themselves stabbed at the back by the very people they are trying to cater to.
                    Sadly, your image may be closer to the truth than you think. I know I feel that way from time to time. I'm pretty sure Ryan does as well. And I know that the GP2X crowd IS that way- and the devs there feel that way from time to time.

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                    • #70
                      Yeah. It's something that I learn from flocking forums. I don't like the attitude people exhibit, but it seems it cannot be helped, really.

                      I hope people can have a more open mind about this. Maybe things will change, but haven't we kept harping about change year after year?

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by niniendowarrior View Post
                        Yeah. It's something that I learn from flocking forums. I don't like the attitude people exhibit, but it seems it cannot be helped, really.

                        I hope people can have a more open mind about this. Maybe things will change, but haven't we kept harping about change year after year?
                        I'm sure plenty of people appreciate the job LGP and Runesoft are doing (I know I do) but the thing is the people enjoying the games don't see a reason to post on forums so you end up with just people whining.

                        GP2X
                        Didn't know about this one looks quite nice... I might have to see if it's worth getting this or the Pandora...

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Aradreth View Post
                          I'm sure plenty of people appreciate the job LGP and Runesoft are doing (I know I do) but the thing is the people enjoying the games don't see a reason to post on forums so you end up with just people whining.
                          the thing is that nothing is absolute

                          you can't discuss things only in black and white, saying "you either like the game ported or f*ck off you whiny(sp?) unappreciative bia*ch" will not help anyone

                          I am posting here because I CARE about Linux games, I want them plenty and varied

                          but, what should one do if one wants to help and thank LGP for their efforts, but doesn't enjoy those games that have been ported?

                          should i email them with "pls port DaWitcher, k? 10x!" ?

                          i, for one, hoped that given, afaik, the close relation between Phoronix and LGP, this forum could act as a feedback system for LGP, and thats exactly what i've given

                          as any other game on any platform, the games ported by LGP will go through the same logic: info, review, demo tested, decision of buying or not

                          unfortunately the Sacred demo tested by me in 2005 did not attract me beyond a Diablo(2) clone + horses + big/open map
                          Last edited by Licaon; 05-23-2008, 10:04 AM.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Aradreth View Post
                            Didn't know about this one looks quite nice... I might have to see if it's worth getting this or the Pandora...
                            Hang loose. The Pandora's a quantum leap in gaming handhelds. The current crop of them don't do things like shader programmable 3D- the Pandora DOES.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Licaon View Post
                              unfortunately the Sacred demo tested by me in 2005 did not attract me beyond a Diablo(2) clone + horses + big/open map
                              Then that should have been ALL you said, my friend.

                              The rest of your commentary was gratuitous past that statement right there and contributes nothing to the conversation.

                              This isn't a "take it and like it" remark that I've been making all throughout this thread with you.

                              If you don't want it- fine. No problem. It's not your cup of tea- and I can understand that.

                              I happen to LIKE Diablo 2 style stuff as well as the NWN/Witcher stuff- so I don't have the same issue with it that you claim to.

                              Ragging on it as having "tanked" as your rationale (which is what you ran up the flagpole initially...), however, is more than over the top and misses the whole point (as you seem to keep missing, sir...) of what I've been trying to tell you.

                              Saying "Why don't you do stuff like Witcher?" and then ignoring what I've been telling you isn't winning you any points. I hate to disillusion you and everyone that's not on the same page right at the moment...unless it's a Windows SKU or has a means to run it with some semblance of NATIVE Linux binaries, you are NOT their customer. Get the notion that you're their customer out of your head- unless you run the title under Windows, you're nothing of the sort.

                              You've been told what's going on and why- and you keep repeating the same thing over and over again. And, unfortunately, even though several people have told you how things work, you keep trying the same thing- the industry DOES NOT WORK THE WAY YOU THINK IT DOES.

                              Trust me, many people in the Linux publishing space have discussed trying to get titles of the nature you're wanting in hand.

                              In pretty much every case, the proposal's shot down by the current Windows publisher who's got all the rights in question. In many cases, it's not the studio that has a say-so. In many cases, the studio actually WANTED to make a Linux version and got told to NOT do it or else by the publisher. Telling me, Ryan, LGP, and others what you want is all well and good0 it's decent feedback to let all of the people trying to make a difference know they're barking up the right tree or not.

                              Expecting that to change things in the slightest isn't realistic- and I've been telling you over and over again WHY.

                              [edit]

                              Suggesting wanted titles isn't going to change things.
                              Buying what's available when you like what you see will.
                              Buying Windows titles won't.
                              Pestering studios and publishers for Linux titles won't either.
                              Bashing what's available when you don't like it won't either.

                              Valve bringing Steam and Source MIGHT change things some or a lot. It depends on how well received it all is.
                              Last edited by Svartalf; 05-23-2008, 11:27 AM.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Aradreth View Post
                                I'm sure plenty of people appreciate the job LGP and Runesoft are doing (I know I do) but the thing is the people enjoying the games don't see a reason to post on forums so you end up with just people whining.

                                Didn't know about this one looks quite nice... I might have to see if it's worth getting this or the Pandora...
                                I hope you're right there. And I appreciate the stuff they do too. I used to have a mindset of that these people keep porting irrelevant things, but what they do really helps and gradually improves the situation with every title released. I hope to see more from them.

                                GP2X is the nice pirates handheld machine. I've read quite a bit of it and it's quite lovely. I just don't have money to burn on that one. Never heard of Pandora, but I've been living inside a cave for at least a year. *chuckles*

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