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5 Months And Still No UT3 For Linux

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  • Originally posted by gilboa View Post
    There's a -vast- difference between (empty) forum posts and actual revenues.
    As long as vast majority of gamers buy Windows titles, most titles will be Windows only. Simple economics.

    - Gilboa
    whats the other choice? not buying anything at all? Thats not a very popular option for the majority. thats why countries get crappy presidents, no one likes to vote blank.

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    • There is a market and its growing rapidly , ignore the market at your peril , although market size has nothing to do with why there is still no ut3 port. Generally speaking the game has bombed and those console monkeys are no substitute for a community. I would still like my game to run however along with the editor as promised so i can get busy modding as the engine its self is very good indeed.....heh skateboards and nerfballs in ons indeed :P

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      • Originally posted by xav1r View Post
        whats the other choice? not buying anything at all? Thats not a very popular option for the majority. thats why countries get crappy presidents, no one likes to vote blank.
        Crappy presidents, you wouldn't be talking about US would you?

        Nerf... hmm... how about the old-fashioned paint rounds?

        I'm sure if the project got canceled, the stink wouldn't be legal. It would be from us, and that would dig Linux in further as an unviable PC gaming platform. If Epic backed out of a platform that they've supported, then there would only leave iD, and LGP's fistful of companies willing to do business. Sad to say it, but we need those companies to help leverage the platform. So if they have faith in us, and continue to develop for our platform, other people will too, and it's a valid arguable point when talking to companies to convince them.
        It is very well viable, but only if the companies see it as profitable.

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        • Originally posted by D0pamine View Post
          There is a market and its growing rapidly , ignore the market at your peril , although market size has nothing to do with why there is still no ut3 port. Generally speaking the game has bombed and those console monkeys are no substitute for a community. I would still like my game to run however along with the editor as promised so i can get busy modding as the engine its self is very good indeed.....heh skateboards and nerfballs in ons indeed :P
          Businesses do that all the time- ignoring new markets. What you're not getting is that the gaming industry is more akin to the music industry in many ways- the same class of people are running it (In some cases, they're the same ones as the major labels (Heh... Vivendi/Universal ring a bell?). Do you see the labels not with their heads up their backside with regards to a rapidly growing market? I think the response to downloads, etc. shows how they think about things that don't fit into the mold of what they already know.

          Either you wait until they realize the market really is there (Probably another 2-3 years or a little longer at the current rate of things happening...) or you change the rules of the game like the indies are doing things right at the moment in the music industry.

          Change the nature of the game or play along- mouthing off will not change how things are or get them to "wise up" about a growing market.

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          • Originally posted by xav1r View Post
            whats the other choice? not buying anything at all? Thats not a very popular option for the majority. thats why countries get crappy presidents, no one likes to vote blank.
            It still doesn't change the reality of what was stated that you were commenting on.

            Buying Windows titles sends a vote with money for studios to keep making Windows titles. That, folks, is a hard bit of reality that will not change with any amount of pointing, handwaving, etc. about this being a much bigger market than they think and it's at least 30-50 million strong. If the community can't be bothered to buy largely Linux titles, why should they go to the trouble of making them?

            You mean to tell them that people buying it under Windows and running it under WINE means they'll buy it for Linux?

            There is absolutely NO assurances of that there for them- and if it works under WINE in an even mediocre fashion, and you're all buying Windows titles with that situation, why should they expend $30-50k worth of development effort on their part? So that they'll have 5-10k happier users? (Keep in mind, you are NOT their customer, no matter HOW you try to frame it, unless you bought it from them DIRECTLY like with S2 games, you're a user of their stuff at best, and if you're not using an officially/unofficially supported OS platform, you're not even that really...) Did they show a profit, just break-even, or lose money on that- unless it's a profit venture, unless the studio is doing it for their own purposes, it will flat-out NOT get done.

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            • Originally posted by Svartalf View Post
              mouthing off will not change how things are or get them to "wise up" about a growing market.
              What will make then "wise up" then? , i would buy LGP titles if A: i could get to http://www.linuxgamepublishing.com/ and B: they ported anything that i want to play. They should port GOOD games , not neccaserily the latest 'hot' titles but games people actually like , i'm sure they could port something like wwp for peanuts and knock it out for $10-$20 , heck even include a free ubuntu cd. Imagine if LGP struck a deal with sony to port GT4 to GNU/Linux , there would be mass ubuntu installations just so they could play GT4 on their proper computers ( oh i'd pay $300 maybe even $400 for that title... ).

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              • Originally posted by D0pamine View Post
                What will make then "wise up" then? , i would buy LGP titles if A: i could get to http://www.linuxgamepublishing.com/ and B: they ported anything that i want to play. They should port GOOD games , not neccaserily the latest 'hot' titles but games people actually like , i'm sure they could port something like wwp for peanuts and knock it out for $10-$20 , heck even include a free ubuntu cd. Imagine if LGP struck a deal with sony to port GT4 to GNU/Linux , there would be mass ubuntu installations just so they could play GT4 on their proper computers ( oh i'd pay $300 maybe even $400 for that title... ).
                Heh...

                You'd pay $300 for that title? Think you can find some 4000 people to buy it that way- and then only if you pony up the cash up-front on the risk that it might never happen? If so, then you might, MIGHT see something happen there. They're going to want $100k or more just to have access to the rights to THAT particular title- and for that title, a small profit would be available at the 4000 unit level and would break even only if you found some 3333 other people like yourself at the MINIMUM. Do the math and don't play games with it trying to bury either the man-hours for the team (probably on the order of $50-100k of pay's worth there if they're not seasoned cross-platform players targeting for things like MacOS...) or the royalty payments. There's a cruel hard math here you're just glossing over in your remarks.

                It does NOT hardly cost them anything to make a Linux version. Unless it's ALREADY made in the first place or they have a MacOS or possibly a PS3 version, it's going to take some effort to make it work that way if they've used a lot of DirectX stuff nestled in their game. It's not undoable, but it means work. Salaries need to be paid for that stuff. It would take 4 or more months. This means they're out anywhere from $50-150k just to make that Linux version. That's not hardly anything. You NEED to sell 2000 units at $30 per copy to see a smidge of a profit on your investment of money at the $50k expense level. We've not really seen that sort of traction in the space of late if you want the brutal honest truth- and this is even with Quake3:Arena, a game everybody wanted. It only sold 150-200 units because of a slight delay in shipping and NOBODY wanted to wait for the damn things and skewed the metrics (iD does not keep track of what OS a given copy of Q3:A was running nor would DL's of the "patch" set be a good metric either.)- and they all go off of SKU sales, not downloads, etc. when they make determinations of what to do in the industry. What makes them money.

                200, even 2000 units in sales will not endear you to them. In their world, unless it's a very niche play, you'd better, by-God, sell something on the order of 25-50k units or it's deemed a dead loss- "tanked" as someone put it in another thread, which would be a legitimate call on the description they'd apply to it, even if it was a good game. If it's a niche play, it'd better sell 5k units at the least and would be better if they sold 10k or more.

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                • so linux gaming is a lost cause ? should i install winxp ? ( shudder )

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                  • Originally posted by D0pamine View Post
                    so linux gaming is a lost cause ? should i install winxp ? ( shudder )
                    You know...nothing in what I said said this... What I told you was how unrealistic YOUR position in all of this was.

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                    • Linux gaming as I see it is an uphill battle, carrying camping equipment, in the snow, but at least we have snow boots.

                      I know I buy these games for Windows and run them on Wine/Cedega because it's popular and no Linux version is available. I actually missed out on Hellgate London because there's no support at all for it.

                      I also think that the numbers game in this case is completely screwed up. All of the Windows layer emulation IS screwing and skewing these numbers.

                      Unless a game is programmed with compatibility in mind (why doesn't anyone use Eclipse+CDT?), it's hard to port. That's why Quake 3 did so well on a multitude of systems. I guess it has to be set and stuck with through the initial dev stages.

                      PS, I know Eclipse+CDT on Windows is a bitch to set up. I only got it right once, and I can't remember for the life of me how to get it going again.

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                      • Sadly gaming on Linux is a vicious cycle. There are no games because IHVs claim a slim market -> New users end up dual-booting due to lack of games -> giving the impression of a slim market.

                        Plus there's the whole "Music-like" business model of the whole gaming industry (what the hell, the whole entertainment industry is managed the same) which leads to utter inflexibility from the actual content creators to deliver their content wherever they see fit. A few notable exceptions exist, but big as they may be, they don't seem to be influencing the big corporate publishers into exploring new markets or having their products available for proven potential markets (like MacOS X with its huge annual growth). I totally agree with Svartalf with regards to a necessity to reinvent the rules. Especially with the advent of the Internet and the publishing potential it has (just look at Valve and how well has Steam paid off to them). I also agree that it is with independent content producers that the most potential for this lies, and that maybe (just maybe) that could influence the big corps to turn their collective heads to Linux. Or as he says wait a few more years, 'cause if the trend is steady, Linux is going to be huge in less than 5 years.

                        The way I see it, the root of the problem (more than the actual number of users, and hence potential market) lies in the foundation of the business model. It sure as hell benefits big time the publishers, which in turn has enabled them to acquire content producers, aka studios. Guess who gets screwed with that model? Publishers are totally independent, as they don't have to wait for someone to want to publish something, they simply do it all in-house. But the system is such, that the associated costs for publishing make it almost impossible for small studios to it on their own... And the big studios are usually owned or associated with the big publishers... Another vicious cycle.

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                        • i don't know why the game developers who make a ps3/mac version don't make a linux version... as long as they are using opengl, and libsdl they are ready to go.

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                          • I see some of the budget re-releases here for Windows. The Heroes, Originals Editions are normally independent 3rd party companies that republish and repackage these older games. I'm not entirely sure how they operate, but they certainly do get some AAA games.

                            How different their model is to the Linux game porting business, I cannot say for sure, but I truly wonder how these guys manage to survive without a sound business case.

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                            • Originally posted by Dandel View Post
                              i don't know why the game developers who make a ps3/mac version don't make a linux version... as long as they are using opengl, and libsdl they are ready to go.
                              Because it's not their call? If the publisher is calling the shots, and depending on the terms they signed in their draconian contract some studios may or may not retain some rights to their products. Otherwise is all being decisions made by the publishers... Which is the pure evil of the current business model... And things are going to only get worse as the natural evolution would dictate that there will only remain a few publishers, owning 80%+ of the studios (sound familiar? Lemme give you a hint: music labels).

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                              • Originally posted by Svartalf View Post
                                You know...nothing in what I said said this... What I told you was how unrealistic YOUR position in all of this was.
                                So what do you suggest?
                                D0pamine might of taken the extreme response with go back to window, but it would yield games

                                Its great what "Linux Game Publishing" (and if X3 ever gets released I shall be buying it!) but its not caused any major shift in gaming philosophy has it?

                                The only thing that has caused a major shift w.r.t. gaming on the PC is consoles (and also pirating... or pirating used as an excused by dev houses for poor sales of rubbish! take crysis...).

                                The games on the horizon that I am interested in are
                                1) X3
                                2) Rage
                                3) The new Wolfenstein
                                4) DawnOfWar2

                                ONLY one of these has confirmed linux client and that is X3. DawnOfWar2 definitly doesn't and the two iD titles only have WinPC,MAC,Consoles as confirmed platforms

                                its getting to the point that its feeling like iD are pulling out of
                                the linux market

                                IF iD don't release linux clients for Rage and/or new Wolf it would be a MAJOR step back for gaming on linux and it will turn more people away and could even turn people back to windows...

                                Its a chicken and the Egg situation: People want to use linux, but the apps they want don't exist (majority of the time its games), but game publishers won't write/port games unless there is money in said market and said market need people


                                IF the rumours about STEAM coming to linux are true (esp with Postal3 confirmed having a linux client) THAT would do loads in starting dev-houses moving over.
                                Also Ubuntu has done loads to help linux on the desktop (made it more user-friendly and making it a distro 3rd parties can target AS opose to 1million distros...).


                                Assuming iD do pull out of linux AND Valve don't release a linux client that would effectly killed off linux as a gaming OS (until console's kill off windows as a gaming OS...). IF that happens the number of people interested in gaming on linux will fall from very low to being lost in noise THUS "Linux Game Publishing" revenue stream will vanish

                                So what is "Linux Game Publishing" doing to secure future revenue? or is it only interested in the short term it can get while gaming on linux is a budding seedling THAT can easily get stomped out

                                Take DoW2 (the game I am really stoked for!!!!) for that to come to Linux that would take alot since it is a DirectX. Even if you approached Relic when they were in Concept Design w.r.t. DoW2 it still wouldn't of happened since it is using the essense engine which already exists and is DirectX (thus still a major port).
                                But what about the next engine? Catch the core engine of the game before it is tied to DX and a port of any future games is alot simplier.

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