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  • #16
    Originally posted by Annabel View Post
    All of the games that Valve has in it's Steam collection and Steam itself are proprietary, they are just trying to look good by helping some free projects in some small way redeems that isn't something to be fooled by
    You shouldn't get fooled by that. But that doesn't mean the contributions are bad in any way. Heck, if Microsoft became a Linux Foundation member, it would be just fine, too. The money they put in it go towards FOSS, and that's a good thing to all things FOSS. The source of the funds is largely irrelevant; if anything, it's nice that they take the funds from corporate giants, since those are funds that don't have to be paid by smaller companies or individuals.

    I don't care about any DRM platform myself, but if Valve writes FOSS software and gives money to fund Linux development, it's not an issue. They should be encouraged to do so (and discouraged from using DRM). Also, do realise that large companies are made of different parts. You might not like what one part does, but that doesn't mean another part is bad. If they have a FOSS development team and a DRM development team, you shouldn't just assume the FOSS development team is somehow tainted, just because they are paid from the same budget. As well you shouldn't assume the DRM team is doing anything better just because there is a FOSS team under the same company. Again, I can draw a comparison with Microsoft their software division makes horrible products, but their hardware division makes pretty solid PC peripherals. Both divisions deserve their own reputation to be judged separately.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Annabel View Post
      All of the games that Valve has in it's Steam collection and Steam itself are proprietary...
      And you don't have to use it.

      Meanwhile, Linux users/gamers like myself have been seeing this like a dream come true. Once Steam for Linux came about, I no longer had a reason to keep Windows around. I'm 100% Linux these days and I aint complaining.

      Even those of you who reject using Steam, will benefit from improved graphics drivers etc (already have, too).

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      • #18
        Originally posted by ElderSnake View Post
        And you don't have to use it.

        Meanwhile, Linux users/gamers like myself have been seeing this like a dream come true. Once Steam for Linux came about, I no longer had a reason to keep Windows around. I'm 100% Linux these days and I aint complaining.

        Even those of you who reject using Steam, will benefit from improved graphics drivers etc (already have, too).
        <sarcasm> So you will replace windows by a steam blob, running game blobs, with blob drivers running on top of an open source kernel, whoo-hoo! Open source ala valve bitches!

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        • #19
          well, thank god we don't play 24/24 7/7 and other software houses might be interested in supporting Linux. Like, adobe providing photoshop. This will force the software houses to invest in already-in-place-tools that are gpl or similar, so that the whole OS infrastructure will benefit same as the software house. And they will see that to support Linux it will be easier if instead of recreating the tools you just SEND the code, and if the code is good will be accepted. Think about the process they have to go now thorugh with Microsoft and Apple, to modify/insert/whatever inside their OS functions and support for thing that they could build all togheter to support each other and share costs..

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          • #20
            Originally posted by log0 View Post
            So you will replace windows by a steam blob, running game blobs, with blob drivers running on top of an open source kernel, whoo-hoo! Open source ala valve bitches!
            Yes.

            There. You've nailed it. Congratulations.
            You see, now we are now longer dependent on the inferior OS which costs money.


            And by the way, this may come as a shock, but most "normal" end users who are interested in the GPU, are only interested in the driver software that comes from, or is recommended by, its vendor. Be it open source like in Intel's case or fully proprietary like Nvidia's, that doesn't matter at all for the folks who just want a product that is guaranteed (by its vendor) to actually work.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by M1kkko View Post
              Yes.

              There. You've nailed it. Congratulations.
              You see, now we are now longer dependent on the inferior OS which costs money.


              And by the way, this may come as a shock, but most "normal" end users who are interested in the GPU, are only interested in the driver software that comes from, or is recommended by, its vendor. Be it open source like in Intel's case or fully proprietary like Nvidia's, that doesn't matter at all for the folks who just want a product that is guaranteed (by its vendor) to actually work.
              I concur.

              I dont' want to buy an OS with virus scanners and anti-spyware and inferior security from the very foundations (and the multitude of bloatware bolted on to Windows to make it run like Linux); just to play games that I DO want to buy. I just want it to work, and perform well if not do greatness harnessing what the linux kernel can do.

              I am not alone with this mentality; I would suspect we are the majority amongst the users of Linux.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by log0 View Post
                <sarcasm> So you will replace windows by a steam blob, running game blobs, with blob drivers running on top of an open source kernel, whoo-hoo! Open source ala valve bitches!
                Yep pretty much. Most of the system libs etc are free and open source and I have far greater control and freedom (if I choose to use it) of what goes on at the nuts and bolts level than I would on Windows.

                Even Richard Stallman conceded it's better to have people coming across from Windows and playing Steam-based games on Linux than not.
                Last edited by ElderSnake; 12-04-2013, 07:41 PM.

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                • #23
                  To the Stallman parrots:

                  The free software debate is one to be had by software creators, not users. As far as users are concerned, the software's value is determined by how productive, or in the case of gaming, entertaining it is. Users don't really care about the licensing of the software or the availability of it's source, and should not have to. For most linux fans, the free as in freedom aspect of the system is not it's prime attraction, it is the flexibility of Linux distributions opposed to windows or mac, a feature that has nothing to do with software licensing.

                  The fact is most free software projects advertise the fact that they're free, losing the attention of users who neither know nor care what that means. Firefox didn't spread because it is free, it spread because it is a competitive product.

                  Advocacy to users does a lot more harm than good to the free software cause. Instead of being that friendly person who wants to save them from their proprietary jails, in their eyes you're that douchebag working his agenda into every conversation, because let's face it, free or not, regular users won't directly feel the effects of a world with free software. Unless you're dealing with code, software freedom is not a visible thing.

                  Steam on Linux makes Linux a more attractive means that it's a step in the direction of users thinking about it as a real alternative to windows, not just that thing their nerd friends use for some reason.

                  As long as free software remains inferior to proprietary software in the eyes of users, no amount of lobbying will convince them to use it, so stop treating freedom as a feature that should be present in all software users should look for. It is a fundamental property that all software should possess. We shouldn't be fighting to maximize free software users, we shoud be fighting for a world where I can use any piece of software and reasonably expect to be able to use, examine, modify and redistribute it without restriction, a world where it is a legitimate surprise if I can't. Developers, especially those building apps for the average joe, are the only ones that can make this happen and once they learn to advertise the quality of their product over licensing when going free will they realize how little the average joe cares, and how much better it is for them.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by ElderSnake View Post
                    Yep pretty much. Most of the system libs etc are free and open source and I have far greater control and freedom (if I choose to use it) of what goes on at the nuts and bolts level than I would on Windows.

                    Even Richard Stallman conceded it's better to have people coming across from Windows and playing Steam-based games on Linux than not.
                    Exactly, even Stallman is not as blind as some of the fanatics here.

                    free as in freedom not as in free beer.

                    So if I want to run proprietary software its my choice.

                    The best news for me in years, was steam coming to Linux.

                    All Linux users already have better vid drivers because of it, but still they whine, even now Valve is contributing to Linux.

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                    • #25

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by M1kkko View Post
                        Yes.

                        There. You've nailed it. Congratulations.
                        You see, now we are now longer dependent on the inferior OS which costs money.


                        And by the way, this may come as a shock, but most "normal" end users who are interested in the GPU, are only interested in the driver software that comes from, or is recommended by, its vendor. Be it open source like in Intel's case or fully proprietary like Nvidia's, that doesn't matter at all for the folks who just want a product that is guaranteed (by its vendor) to actually work.
                        First, I'll answer the quoted guy: you do not need to even touch Steam. However, money will flow from the company behind it to OPEN SOURCE, FREE, GPL technologies in the kernel you use. That is not bad at all, period.

                        Then, to you, this is all too beautiful and all, but it is completely irrelevant to the point of free software. People who just wants things that work for free have nothing to do with free software, and they don't care about it and people wanting free software don't care about them. They are disjoint groups, and it is alright, but your point is completely irrelevant to what the quoted guy is talking about, as he talks about free software, not about freeware.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by bayan.r View Post
                          To the Stallman parrots:

                          The free software debate is one to be had by software creators, not users. As far as users are concerned, the software's value is determined by how productive, or in the case of gaming, entertaining it is. Users don't really care about the licensing of the software or the availability of it's source, and should not have to. For most linux fans, the free as in freedom aspect of the system is not it's prime attraction, it is the flexibility of Linux distributions opposed to windows or mac, a feature that has nothing to do with software licensing.
                          Pretty much wrong. Users don't care, and do not have to care, about source code licensing, as this is pretty much useless if you do not read it. But the binaries comes with a license, too, and they care and should care about the conditions to use it. It is not the same to have a software you can use any way you want than a software you can only use on a given platform (even if you could run it without problems in other platforms, for example, MacOS X should be able to run on any AMD64 hardware, but the license binds you to use an Apple computer). Some Linux users might want to use MacOS X, as it is a decent OS, but don't want the hardware lock it implies, for example.

                          Unless you're dealing with code, software freedom is not a visible thing.
                          Partially agree. Again, some of the freedoms are not visible for a non-dev user, but some other are.

                          Steam on Linux makes Linux a more attractive means that it's a step in the direction of users thinking about it as a real alternative to windows, not just that thing their nerd friends use for some reason.

                          As long as free software remains inferior to proprietary software in the eyes of users, no amount of lobbying will convince them to use it, so stop treating freedom as a feature that should be present in all software users should look for. It is a fundamental property that all software should possess. We shouldn't be fighting to maximize free software users, we shoud be fighting for a world where I can use any piece of software and reasonably expect to be able to use, examine, modify and redistribute it without restriction, a world where it is a legitimate surprise if I can't. Developers, especially those building apps for the average joe, are the only ones that can make this happen and once they learn to advertise the quality of their product over licensing when going free will they realize how little the average joe cares, and how much better it is for them.
                          I agree.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by log0 View Post
                            <sarcasm> So you will replace windows by a steam blob, running game blobs, with blob drivers running on top of an open source kernel, whoo-hoo! Open source ala valve bitches!
                            First up, replacing Windows with binary games is by far better than running the exact same games on Windows. Is it more free to run a proprietary game on linux or is it more free to run a proprietary game on Windows? FOSS people say free as in freedom, so if certain aspects of freedom aren't really relevant to the user, the user may of course forfeit that specific freedom(in this case the "modify" and "derive" freedom, if you can modify the game then you can cheat), that's the user's choice, and it's the user's freedom to forfeit certain aspects of his own freedom. Why fight for something you don't need?(and that'd be a waste of resource to fight for something that doesn't really matter to you) Of course I'm talking about users here. There still are people who are practically restricted by that, like developers wanting to fork the games, but it'd not make any difference. Now steam came to linux, and the people can't fork the games. If steam didn't come to linux, people can't fork it too. No difference. The real difference is that Linux is going so get more attention, more users, more support, and the new game market will boost linux GPU driver development, not only of proprietary ones, but also free ones. (they now have more testing platforms, and also have more attention and more urge/obligation to make the drivers better). And for your information, I don't personally use steam.

                            Seconds, nobody said you'll need blob drivers. If you use Intel or AMD GPU you most likely dont need that. You'd need blob drivers if you use Nvidia, but then again, does it affect anyone? Run blob drivers or not, Nouveau devs still cant get their hands on the source code either way. And if Nvidia didn't release these blobs the Nouveau devs would have even less breadcrumb.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by busukxuan View Post
                              First up, replacing Windows with binary games is by far better than running the exact same games on Windows. Is it more free to run a proprietary game on linux or is it more free to run a proprietary game on Windows? FOSS people say free as in freedom, so if certain aspects of freedom aren't really relevant to the user, the user may of course forfeit that specific freedom(in this case the "modify" and "derive" freedom, if you can modify the game then you can cheat), that's the user's choice, and it's the user's freedom to forfeit certain aspects of his own freedom. Why fight for something you don't need?(and that'd be a waste of resource to fight for something that doesn't really matter to you) Of course I'm talking about users here. There still are people who are practically restricted by that, like developers wanting to fork the games, but it'd not make any difference. Now steam came to linux, and the people can't fork the games. If steam didn't come to linux, people can't fork it too. No difference. The real difference is that Linux is going so get more attention, more users, more support, and the new game market will boost linux GPU driver development, not only of proprietary ones, but also free ones. (they now have more testing platforms, and also have more attention and more urge/obligation to make the drivers better). And for your information, I don't personally use steam.

                              Seconds, nobody said you'll need blob drivers. If you use Intel or AMD GPU you most likely dont need that. You'd need blob drivers if you use Nvidia, but then again, does it affect anyone? Run blob drivers or not, Nouveau devs still cant get their hands on the source code either way. And if Nvidia didn't release these blobs the Nouveau devs would have even less breadcrumb.
                              Try to be a bit more realistic. Already from the comments here it is obvious that the so called linux user doesn't give crap about open source as long as it is free for him to use... Thus I am quite sure the majority will be running blob drivers (except for intel, but then you don't really want to game on intel gpus). I guess the steam defenders here would be quite happy even if the kernel was a blob. Why should they care, right?

                              So in the end, what is the point of using linux for steam? Just the convenience to not have to boot into windows for gaming?

                              And sorry, but I don't buy the positive effects on foss story. What positive effects have been there by google using linux kernel for android? A dozen more blob drivers?
                              Last edited by log0; 12-05-2013, 05:38 AM. Reason: fix a few typos

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by log0 View Post
                                Try to be a bit more realistic. Already from the comments here it is obvious that the so called linux user doesn't give crap about open source as long as it is free for him to use... Thus I am quite sure the majority will be running blob drivers (except for intel, but then you don't really want to game on intel gpus). I guess the steam defenders here would be quite happy even if the kernel was a blob. Why should they care, right?

                                So in the end, what is the point of using linux for steam? Just the convenience to not have to boot into widows for gaming?

                                And sorry, but I don't buy the positive effects on foss story. What positive effects have been there by google using linux kernel for android? A dozen more blob drivers?

                                Greater power efficiency is one that I remember Torvalds mentioning, due to mobile devices requirement, which also come to be useful for server and laptop.

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