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Is Valve's Steam Client Bad & Damaging For Linux?

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  • Originally posted by DMJC View Post
    There are many reasons why OSS games are failing but for myself the number one reason was lack of tools.
    Glad to see I'm not the only one that sees the problem. Show of hands, who here spent countless hours as a kid making custom maps or characters in Tony Hawk's Pro Skater, Twisted Metal, RPG/Fighter Maker, Neverwinter Nights, Armored Core, etc.? I know I did, and actually still have many of those old saves backed up on a CD somewhere via the Gameshark PC link cable to my Playsation.

    Map making can be as simple as making a sandbox grid and have a bunch of pre-made items that take up one cube each that anybody without any even any command line, let alone any coding skill can put together a map all on their own in an hour using all pre-fabricated items already found in the standard game. This alone would make all OSS games fore more interesting to play.

    It was tools like those that allowed games to have allot more replay value and caused a dedicated community to build up around the game.

    If you are a perspective OSS dev, shoot for something closer to Garry's Mod over a canned shooter and you will actually build a community around the game of more then a handful of narcissistic coders that can't be bothered to do anything but tell people to hand code it themselves.

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    • Originally posted by Kivada View Post
      Glad to see I'm not the only one that sees the problem. Show of hands, who here spent countless hours as a kid making custom maps or characters in Tony Hawk's Pro Skater, Twisted Metal, RPG/Fighter Maker, Neverwinter Nights, Armored Core, etc.? I know I did, and actually still have many of those old saves backed up on a CD somewhere via the Gameshark PC link cable to my Playsation.

      Map making can be as simple as making a sandbox grid and have a bunch of pre-made items that take up one cube each that anybody without any even any command line, let alone any coding skill can put together a map all on their own in an hour using all pre-fabricated items already found in the standard game. This alone would make all OSS games fore more interesting to play.

      It was tools like those that allowed games to have allot more replay value and caused a dedicated community to build up around the game.

      If you are a perspective OSS dev, shoot for something closer to Garry's Mod over a canned shooter and you will actually build a community around the game of more then a handful of narcissistic coders that can't be bothered to do anything but tell people to hand code it themselves.
      Define "kid" I was banging away on an Apple ][ back then =p, friggen basic. This point however is very valid and learned the hard way. When I start projects these days the first thing I do is build a tool set =). The best part about creating tools is they often can be repurposed or reused.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by jan1024188 View Post
        You are not a developer, huh? You do not know how hard it is to battle fragmentation on Linux. If I was an enterprise, I would partner up with Canonical too.
        sounds more like you are not a developer here.

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        • Originally posted by jayrulez View Post
          Present your evidence of advocacy then.
          Sure, from the original article:

          Originally posted by Michael Larabel
          Fortunately, most Linux gamers don't see this way as Steam being a detriment to Linux. Valve supporting Linux has been the most significant boost to the Linux desktop in many years, perhaps ever.
          That is advocacy, not merely coverage.

          Coverage would be saying that this service is announced but not making judgement of whether it's good or bad. Calling Steam "the most significant boost to the Linux desktop in many years, perhaps ever" is more than impartial coverage.

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          • Originally posted by Gps4l View Post
            I do not get why some people see Valve as evil.
            "Evil" is too emotional and unnecessarily dramatic. I never called them evil. I can make calm, reasonable, logical points without resorting to that type of excessive hyperbole.

            Valve has every right to charge whatever they want and demand whatever legal terms they want of their partners. Steam is completely proprietary and owned by Valve and they are allowed to do whatever they want with it even if it's not in the interests of their partners, developers, or the community.

            However, it's not in the interests of the Linux community to have such a proprietary service like that as the central backbone for all Linux gaming like Steam is on Windows.

            The Linux community should advocate for something with more open terms, that stresses more developer freedom and rights. Also, any middle man marketplace fees should be zero, near zero, or failing that, go to companies more involved with Linux infrastructure like Ubuntu or the kernel team, rather than an outsider company like Valve.

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            • Originally posted by DanLamb View Post
              That is advocacy, not merely coverage.

              Coverage would be saying that this service is announced but not making judgement of whether it's good or bad. Calling Steam "the most significant boost to the Linux desktop in many years, perhaps ever" is more than impartial coverage.
              ....says you.

              dude, i'm not even an fscking gamer, and it's pretty obvious to me that Valve coming to 'desktop linux' is a pretty big deal / good thing. Gaming is huge in Windows land, and both a huge market and technology driver.... You would have to be an idiot to not see that ~ it is a big boost for the linux desktop and is an area where (historically) people have been held back from moving to the platform. (often dual-boot just for gaming, or sticking with Windows) ~ So for 'desktop linux' specifically (ie: not 'linux' specifically) i don't think it is necessarily advocacy to point out that out, since it's just reality.

              Honestly, if you have a problem with Valve, then don't buy their products. other than that, I don't see what you think you are going to achieve here, as your arguments just don't pan out.

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              • Originally posted by ninez View Post
                ....says you.

                dude, i'm not even an fscking gamer, and it's pretty obvious to me that Valve coming to 'desktop linux' is a pretty big deal / good thing. Gaming is huge in Windows land, and both a huge market and technology driver.... You would have to be an idiot to not see that ~ it is a big boost for the linux desktop and is an area where (historically) people have been held back from moving to the platform. (often dual-boot just for gaming, or sticking with Windows) ~ So for 'desktop linux' specifically (ie: not 'linux' specifically) i don't think it is necessarily advocacy to point out that out, since it's just reality.
                It's one thing to argue the main point of whether Steam and a Steam near-monopoly is good/bad for Linux...

                It's another to argue that this site is not advocating for Steam whether that is right or not. You are disagreeing with me but really aren't making a case here. I don't think there is one. Michael Larabel *is* advocating for Steam.

                The most reasonable argument that I can think of defending Steam and their presumed monopoly is this: how is Steam's ownership of the game DRM marketplace different from Amazon or Apple having dominant positions over DRM download marketplaces in e-books and music songs?

                To counter my own argument:

                1) Amazon/Apple did more for books/music. Amazon had arguably the best and cheapest mainstream e-ink reading devices that sold tons. And it had the best physical book store. It's Kindle software is everywhere: PC, Mac, Linux, Android, iOS, and of course Kindle e-ink readers. Sony/Google/Apple don't have that matched. Apple had the overwhelmingly popular iPod for a while. And there are still, pretty good alternatives with Amazon, Google, etc. Users and music publishers really have choice.

                2) There isn't this vocal minority advocating so intensely against even basic competition. Look through this thread: Valve loyalists everywhere. I support Valve having the right to compete, but I'd like to see some viable alternatives.

                Originally posted by ninez View Post
                Honestly, if you have a problem with Valve, then don't buy their products. other than that, I don't see what you think you are going to achieve here, as your arguments just don't pan out.
                Well, I'm suggesting that alternatives to Steam need more advocacy and publicity. Quietly not using Steam myself doesn't really achieve that goal.

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                • Originally posted by DanLamb View Post
                  It's one thing to argue the main point of whether Steam and a Steam near-monopoly is good/bad for Linux...

                  It's another to argue that this site is not advocating for Steam whether that is right or not. You are disagreeing with me but really aren't making a case here. I don't think there is one. Michael Larabel *is* advocating for Steam.

                  The most reasonable argument that I can think of defending Steam and their presumed monopoly is this: how is Steam's ownership of the game DRM marketplace different from Amazon or Apple having dominant positions over DRM download marketplaces in e-books and music songs?

                  To counter my own argument:

                  1) Amazon/Apple did more for books/music. Amazon had arguably the best and cheapest mainstream e-ink reading devices that sold tons. And it had the best physical book store. It's Kindle software is everywhere: PC, Mac, Linux, Android, iOS, and of course Kindle e-ink readers. Sony/Google/Apple don't have that matched. Apple had the overwhelmingly popular iPod for a while. And there are still, pretty good alternatives with Amazon, Google, etc. Users and music publishers really have choice.

                  2) There isn't this vocal minority advocating so intensely against even basic competition. Look through this thread: Valve loyalists everywhere. I support Valve having the right to compete, but I'd like to see some viable alternatives.



                  Well, I'm suggesting that alternatives to Steam need more advocacy and publicity. Quietly not using Steam myself doesn't really achieve that goal.
                  TLDR: Waaaaaaaaaahhhh

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                  • Originally posted by DanLamb View Post
                    It's one thing to argue the main point of whether Steam and a Steam near-monopoly is good/bad for Linux...

                    ....

                    2) There isn't this vocal minority advocating so intensely against even basic competition. Look through this thread: Valve loyalists everywhere. I support Valve having the right to compete, but I'd like to see some viable alternatives.

                    ....

                    Well, I'm suggesting that alternatives to Steam need more advocacy and publicity. Quietly not using Steam myself doesn't really achieve that goal.
                    Desura, HiB immediately come to mind. Desura needs more games but I do love it. HiB needs to update it's fucking ports and answer my God damn E-Mails! I bet about a dozen Linux hackers on this board would do wonders with the source code to some of the half baked ports.

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                    • Originally posted by nightmarex View Post
                      Desura, HiB immediately come to mind. Desura needs more games but I do love it. HiB needs to update it's fucking ports and answer my God damn E-Mails! I bet about a dozen Linux hackers on this board would do wonders with the source code to some of the half baked ports.
                      Yes Desura and HIB get plenty of coverage on phoronix but are both far from a steam alternative.

                      What im waiting for from valve,and it will surely bring some modders with it, is for them to port the source SDK's and authoring tools to GNU/linux

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                      • Originally posted by DDF420 View Post
                        What im waiting for from valve,and it will surely bring some modders with it, is for them to port the source SDK's and authoring tools to GNU/linux
                        Same here, though more because I personally would like to be modding some of Valve's games. The Steam Workshop is pretty sweet; I just need native access to the Source SDK now.

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                        • My dear, I want you to answer me:

                          Originally posted by ArchLinux View Post
                          So your main problem with Steam is that it takes rights away from open source games, but then you also complain that Steam shouldn't exist on Linux at _all_?

                          Try some Source games through Wine and then come back to tell me what a pleasant experience it was. Now that we finally have these things natively on Linux (and there's even more to come) where the _hell_ would you suddenly get it in your head that that's somehow a bad thing?

                          And about the whole "Steam takes away our rights" argument; if you don't want to do that, then bloody don't do it. Most "decent" games on Linux are freely available in the repos anyway. If you _gotta_ have a client, use Desura.

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                          • Originally posted by jan1024188 View Post
                            Steam is optional. If you don't like proprietary software, than don't use it. Case closed. Go play console tic-tac-toe instead and stay in your mom's basement.

                            Proprietary software is what GNU/Linux needs right now. We need professional a-grade games, video editors etc. Not to mention software companies like Valve are contributing a lot to drivers, tools etc... things that we would not have otherwise. Linux needs a good push in right direction, we wan't it to be 'better', don't we?

                            I just don't see how can a hippie in his basement develop a $1,000,000 software project by himself. Unfortunately, some software has to be proprietary to exist. It is fundamentally impossible for it to be free as freedom or even free as free beer.

                            Now, from perspective of end user - I want to play PROPRIETARY game, I have these options:
                            - Boot into Windows and suffer
                            - Run VM and suffer
                            - Go with Wine and hope it works semi-decently and suffer
                            - Double click in Steam and play and have good time

                            I think the latter option is best for everyone. Thank you Valve for your effort to make it possible.
                            As someone who doesn't play games, and hates DRM as well as all things microsnot, I pretty well agree with this statement.
                            Specifically, what I regard as the defining characteristic of free computing isn't that all the software is free, but that the critical and unavoidable components of it **ARE**. In other words, proprietary software is fine, and it is your freedom to chose to use it or not. The operating system and all interfaces (drivers) for various components should be free and open, because you depend on it in order to use any other software, free or not free.

                            There are also certain pieces of software that I believe should be free and open as well, because the use of that software isn't the objective, rather the software is an interface for other things. Take web browsers as an example, like your operating system that provides the interface between you and the bare metal, a web browser provides the interface between you and the internet. And of course, word processors and other standard productivity tools, though these may be more borderline.

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                            • Originally posted by Bomyne View Post
                              If we start enforcing an open source only policy on linux, we'll be scaring away the very people we are trying to recruit to ourside. Valve is doing the right thing and not all Linux software has to be open source. Just as not all Linux software has to be free. It's an operating system and we should treat it like we would Windows, Mac, DOS, whatever. Developers are free to choose what their software's license is.
                              Agreed.
                              The reason why Android is so successful*, is because it is free/open without the "big scary enforcement" part. They accomplish this by using APL rather than GPL (which only applies to the kernel).

                              * more than 75% of mobile smart device shipments run Android currently, Android total device shipments *currently* exceed the total operating system shipments by MS (mobile+phone, desktop, and server), and forecasts show that the majority of ALL devices (more than 50%) with operating systems (including "dumbphones") will be Android devices by 2017. http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology...phones-tablets

                              If anybody is looking for a successful model for open source software, they really need to look straight at Google, since to date, they are the ONLY really and truly (and MASSIVELY) successful open source software vendor.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Prescience500 View Post
                                As a Fedora user, I can assure you're guess is very wrong. It took me a great deal of time to get the steam client to work. It also took a a lot of effort to get some of my games to work. Some of my games I still haven't gotten to work. There is a distro neutral approach. They could have a separate Steam install directory. Sometimes this would mean duplicate installations, but it would take most of the headache out. I promise you that no one without extensive knowledge of Linux will get steam running on anything other than a debian based distro.
                                All the major distros are effectively the same. I can assure you that if you have all the required libs installed and take your time, you can definitely get *anything* made specifically for Ubuntu, to work on Fedora. I say this as a Fedora user myself. Maybe you just don't know how?

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