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Is Valve's Steam Client Bad & Damaging For Linux?

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  • Originally posted by DanLamb View Post
    Salaried employees must generally sign an NDA, which makes total sense. Apps store marketplaces like Apple and Google make you agree to terms, but the terms themselves are completely public and open to public scrutiny. If you want to make and sell software for Mac/Windows/Linux, you don't have to sign anything, you can just do it.
    You ignored what i said - you don't actually know what the NDA covers, nor why Valve has them - your opinions are nothing but speculation, and imho don't have any basis in reality. If you think certain employees working for Apple and/or Google haven't had to sign NDAs in some cases, you are also probably quite wrong...

    Originally posted by DanLamb View Post
    I don't think NDA's are normal for a broad marketplace conduit like Steam aims to be.
    You may not think so, but my feeling is - this is probably often the scenario, across many different markets.

    Originally posted by DanLamb View Post
    It makes sense to welcome more apps/games to Linux even we personally don't like them. Most other apps, don't have this platform wide critical mass effect. Steam however does. I suspect Steam take a very large cut of revenue from Windows gaming today and I don't believe that is reasonable.
    Why not? I think this is just a case of the free-market working correctly. People value Valve's service, they pay for it, it dominates ~ good for them. and regardless, i don't see this bad for desktop linux, at all. - since it brings more people into the fold... underlying stuff - such as drivers, libs, etc - see improvement, etc. To me it's a big win, even if i am not likely to make use of Steam.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by ninez View Post
      You ignored what i said - you don't actually know what the NDA covers, nor why Valve has them - your opinions are nothing but speculation, and imho don't have any basis in reality. If you think certain employees working for Apple and/or Google haven't had to sign NDAs in some cases, you are also probably quite wrong...
      I have speculated on the terms of the hidden contracts. I have also very clearly labeled this as speculation and criticized the very fact that we have to speculate and we can't just see the terms.

      Why would you say "If you think certain employees working for Apple and/or Google haven't had to sign NDAs in some cases, you are also probably quite wrong.."? I just wrote this:

      Originally posted by DanLamb
      Salaried employees must generally sign an NDA, which makes total sense
      You aren't reading anything that I am writing.

      Originally posted by ninez View Post
      Why not? I think this is just a case of the free-market working correctly. People value Valve's service, they pay for it, it dominates ~ good for them.
      If Steam was competing purely on product merit, I would agree. Steam is not winning on technical prowess, but on political clout. Steam has a massive advantage with a very passionate, and extremely vocal minority fan base generating this overwhelming push towards Steam. This crowd generally doesn't even know the secret terms of the Steam contracts and this push isn't merit based.

      I fell like I've written this point many many times in many different ways and people such as you are just not reading or even acknowledging this point.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by DanLamb View Post
        I have speculated on the terms of the hidden contracts. I have also very clearly labeled this as speculation and criticized the very fact that we have to speculate and we can't just see the terms.

        Why would you say "If you think certain employees working for Apple and/or Google haven't had to sign NDAs in some cases, you are also probably quite wrong.."? I just wrote this:



        You aren't reading anything that I am writing.



        If Steam was competing purely on product merit, I would agree. Steam is not winning on technical prowess, but on political clout. Steam has a massive advantage with a very passionate, and extremely vocal minority fan base generating this overwhelming push towards Steam. This crowd generally doesn't even know the secret terms of the Steam contracts and this push isn't merit based.

        I fell like I've written this point many many times in many different ways and people such as you are just not reading or even acknowledging this point.
        Do you want people to acknowledge or support your claims? Substantiate them rather than just presenting conjecture and speculation.

        ____________
        Based on your posts, I believe you are being paid by Valve's competitors prevent support for their platform. This is just speculation. True? No one but you knows. Your posts could be treated the same way.

        Note: I do not really believe that you are being paid to do this.
        Last edited by jayrulez; 04-10-2013, 11:43 AM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by DanLamb View Post
          I have speculated on the terms of the hidden contracts. I have also very clearly labeled this as speculation and criticized the very fact that we have to speculate and we can't just see the terms.
          This seems utterly pointless. You're essentially just making up sh*t, then you are critical of your own fabricated claims, labelling them as _possibly_ being Valve's position...

          when in reality, it is nothing more than non-sense. (since it has no basis in reality).

          Originally posted by DanLamb View Post
          Why would you say "If you think certain employees working for Apple and/or Google haven't had to sign NDAs in some cases, you are also probably quite wrong.."? I just wrote this:

          You aren't reading anything that I am writing.
          I can read just fine. You don't get to redefine where NDAs are, or are not acceptable in business. I've had to sign an NDA before from a company whom i was not employed by, this isn't all that uncommon. By your reasoning, NDAs in this case are unacceptable since i am not on receiving a salary from that company ~ but that is a bunch of BS, straight up. - It was a complete necessity, in order to be able to work with that company, since myslef and others had access / knowledge about things that had to be safe-guarded/protected.

          I've read a bunch of your posts, and i get the impression that you don't have a whole lot of experience with NDAs, or working in this type of situation.

          You seem to be under the false impression of entitlement to know the inner working of Valve and their products, which you are not. Their employees (at various levels) are entitled (more likely a requirement / prerequisite) in order to do the job in order to be able to work @ Valve. - You're not an employee, nor a 3rd party that is working directly with them, get over it. :\

          Originally posted by DanLamb View Post
          If Steam was competing purely on product merit, I would agree. Steam is not winning on technical prowess, but on political clout. Steam has a massive advantage with a very passionate, and extremely vocal minority fan base generating this overwhelming push towards Steam. This crowd generally doesn't even know the secret terms of the Steam contracts and this push isn't merit based.
          that group is not entitled to know the inner working of XYZ's companies products whom they use, necessarily. If you feel that Steam is not winning on technical prowess, fine - then since you have such heavy criticism, why don't you do better - since clearly you think you can / know how to... or is this just a case of being "an arm-chair cynic"?? (seems to me to be very likely, you are the latter).

          Part of any successful company is going to involve, so called "political clout", regardless. Successful companies don't run solely on 'technical merit' - business does not work that way.

          Originally posted by DanLamb View Post
          I fell like I've written this point many many times in many different ways and people such as you are just not reading or even acknowledging this point.
          that's probably because your point isn't quite "as heavy" as you think it is.... You seem idealistic and naive without any actual exposure, inside of a company where NDAs are typically used. Yet, you've defined where/how/why/when NDAs should be used, where/how/why/when they shouldn't be - but their are gapping holes in your logic vs. "reality" in business.

          I just don't think you have a valid argument here. I acknowledge what you are saying ~ i just think your complaint is invalid.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by jayrulez View Post
            Do you want people to acknowledge or support your claims? Substantiate them rather than just presenting conjecture and speculation.

            ____________
            Based on your posts, I believe you are being paid by Valve's competitors prevent support for their platform. This is just speculation. True? No one but you knows. Your posts could be treated the same way.

            Note: I do not really believe that you are being paid to do this.
            +1

            exactly, utterly pointless to be setting up such speculation - as if it has any consequence or truth without anything to back it up.

            it's really silly and i don't get how Dan doesn't seem to get this.

            Comment


            • And so the nuts that think that OSS devs are infallible deities come out again. Just because someone isn't a coder or a 3D modeler or graphics artist doesn't mean they can't critique your work, even if you have done it for free.

              Originally posted by log0 View Post
              Oh right, so there are like ten fps/arena shooters? And that is what you call majority? Stop trolling dude!

              Did it ever come to your mind, that this games are there because their creators and contributors enjoy playing them? And that they might see fancy artwork and story as secondary?

              You don't like them? Don't fscking play them. But shitting on foss games in general just because they don't serve your taste is just sad. At the very least show some respect to the work of others, that they are sharing with you for free btw.
              Because there aren't a dozen clones of VDrift, Flight Gear or any of the OSS games that are trying to do something different. Like so many distros and forks, they are a massive waste of resources that, if they where consolidated into a single project could actually produce something good instead of a dozen things that are below mediocre.

              Originally posted by curaga View Post
              If you clearly know what would be more interesting, why aren't you:
              a) making it, or
              b) writing it out explicitly and then showing your doc around
              I have posted things they could do to vastly improve their games dozens of times, all I ever hear from the devs is that this or that can't be done for lack of resources, so when you inquire how they could get more resources they seem to be 100% dumbfounded. Many of us are more then willing to pay good money for a Linux game that is fun to play, too bad that there are exceedingly few that meet that criteria where they could actually get away with charging.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by ninez View Post
                This seems utterly pointless. You're essentially just making up sh*t, then you are critical of your own fabricated claims, labelling them as _possibly_ being Valve's position... when in reality, it is nothing more than non-sense. (since it has no basis in reality).
                You may make a valid argument that my speculation of the hidden Steam terms are inaccurate, but my criticism of the secretive nature of the contracts themselves is in no way speculative at all.

                Originally posted by ninez View Post
                You don't get to redefine where NDAs are, or are not acceptable in business. I've had to sign an NDA before from a company whom i was not employed by, this isn't all that uncommon. By your reasoning, NDAs in this case are unacceptable since i am not on receiving a salary from that company ~ but that is a bunch of BS, straight up. - It was a complete necessity,
                I never tried to redefine what NDAs are nor did I say that NDAs are unacceptable when you are not receiving a salary.

                I don't want to go off on tangents and debate fair/unfair right/wrong in other unrelated scenarios.

                My claim is that it is not in the interests of the Linux community to have the terms of gaming marketplace be kept secret and under the control of one private company.

                Originally posted by ninez View Post
                You seem to be under the false impression of entitlement to know the inner working of Valve and their products, which you are not.
                I don't think I have some legal right that the inner workings of Valve's contracts or technologies, but I do feel entitled to express that Steam is bad for the Linux community with justifications based on reason.

                Originally posted by ninez View Post
                Part of any successful company is going to involve, so called "political clout", regardless. Successful companies don't run solely on 'technical merit' - business does not work that way.
                I completely agree. My purpose is making the case that the community and this website in particular should put it's political voice behind a different solution to game distribution than Steam for the reasons I have discussed.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by DanLamb View Post
                  You may make a valid argument that my speculation of the hidden Steam terms are inaccurate, but my criticism of the secretive nature of the contracts themselves is in no way speculative at all.
                  Your speculations and reasoning behind them - unfortunately, makes it very hard to take anything that you say seriously. Again, i don't think you seem to understand some pretty basic stuff about NDAs.

                  Originally posted by DanLamb View Post
                  I never tried to redefine what NDAs are nor did I say that NDAs are unacceptable when you are not receiving a salary.

                  I don't want to go off on tangents and debate fair/unfair right/wrong in other unrelated scenarios.
                  Except for that fact that you did - you drew a line when you on the one hand, accepting that employees under salary being justified. And my point still stands, i don't think you have any experience working in an environment where NDAs are common place. You instead just draw your own fact-less conclusions. And you are trying to press an issue of 'right or wrong' / morality within their business - and thus, you do have an unfounded sense of entitlement. ie: you think Valve owes you something, which they do not.

                  Originally posted by DanLamb View Post
                  My claim is that it is not in the interests of the Linux community to have the terms of gaming marketplace be kept secret and under the control of one private company.
                  No one is blocking XYZ gaming company from coming to Linux, nor forcing them to be under the Valve Steam umbrella... and again You are not entitled to know Valve's business plans with their partners.

                  Originally posted by DanLamb View Post
                  I don't think I have some legal right that the inner workings of Valve's contracts or technologies, but I do feel entitled to express that Steam is bad for the Linux community with justifications based on reason.
                  except that your justifications are actually just rationalizations ~ which you've already admitted, by admitting most of it is nothing more than speculation (bordering on plain FUD! imho). I don't see your comments based on 'reason', they are based on speculation, nothing more. You may feel entitled to voice your opinion ~ but that doesn't make it true / valid ... especially, when you are relying on nothing more than your own imagination.

                  Originally posted by DanLamb View Post
                  I completely agree. My purpose is making the case that the community and this website in particular should put it's political voice behind a different solution to game distribution than Steam for the reasons I have discussed.
                  Like i said, Dan - if you think you can do better - no one is stopping you.... but i guess i should also point out the obvious ~ not everyone agrees with you, your points of view, nor do you represent (as a whole) the community (or more likely many communities) whom's interests you seem to think your opinions embody.
                  Last edited by ninez; 04-10-2013, 01:36 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by ninez View Post
                    No one is blocking XYZ gaming company from coming to Linux, nor forcing them to be under the Valve Steam umbrella... and again You are not entitled to know Valve's business plans with their partners.
                    No one is forcing people to use Steam, but Phoronix and others are advocating that we do. I am suggesting that we advocate for an alternative. I've said this many times.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by DanLamb View Post
                      No one is forcing people to use Steam, but Phoronix and others are advocating that we do. I am suggesting that we advocate for an alternative. I've said this many times.
                      So Phoronix covering Valve Steam = Phoronix advocating and/or telling me that i should be using Steam?

                      One word: bullsh*t.

                      Phoronix covers lots of stuff, even just linux gaming-related. I don't think you should be presenting all of Phoronix' coverage as advocating and/or trying to convince the reader to use XYZ software. I really don't see that being the case. Michael tends to cover stuff that he, himself is interested in and/or coverage on things he thinks his readers will be interested in, from my perspective.

                      You can advocate anything you like - go right ahead. But there is no 'we' here. It's pretty obvious, you have your own agenda and opinion on this stuff, which is totally fine ~ but don't make the mistake/assumption of thinking there is a (singular) community who's opinions you represent, because you certainly don't encompass my views and i doubt you have dazzled the hearts and minds of many others either.

                      now, how about enlightening us all to your 'alternative' that is 'the way to go' over Valve Steam?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by ninez View Post
                        So Phoronix covering Valve Steam = Phoronix advocating and/or telling me that i should be using Steam?

                        One word: bullsh*t.
                        I never said nor implied that mere coverage was the same as advocacy. You must be responding to someone else.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by DanLamb View Post
                          I never said nor implied that mere coverage was the same as advocacy. You must be responding to someone else.
                          Present your evidence of advocacy then.

                          Just to put things in perspective. 15 of the 162 posts so far in this thread agree with your claims. That is 9.3%.
                          Unfortunately, all those 15 posts were made by you. No one else seem to share your unwarranted concerns. Please provide tangible evidence to support them or just agree to respectfully disagree with the majority and move on.
                          Last edited by jayrulez; 04-10-2013, 04:05 PM.

                          Comment


                          • I do not get why some people see Valve as evil.

                            openSUSE had a problem with the license. I managed to bring together the right person from Valve and the right person from SUSE.
                            They talked it over, and Valve changed the license, problem solved.

                            Valve has solved problems with steam not ubuntu related.
                            They helped me and others with openSUSE.
                            It was a dream come true, I had never expected them to do this for such a relative small group.

                            From spending most my time on windows, now I spent most of my time on Linux.
                            Thank you Valve.

                            I can't see in steam if I am on windows or Linux, there is almost no difference.
                            ( the only difference is my game library, which by default only shows the game you can play on your current o.s. )

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by DanLamb View Post
                              I never said nor implied that mere coverage was the same as advocacy. You must be responding to someone else.
                              Being intellectually dishonest will get you nowhere in life.

                              You certainly implied that phoronix and other outlets were advocating Valve Steam, while you believe we should be advocating alternatives... So yes, you did imply that, and i am responding to your comment - no one else. - again, stop being so intellectually dishonest - it's VERY obvious that you are simply dodging any responsibility for things you have said / claims that you have made...

                              Originally posted by jayrulez View Post
                              Present your evidence of advocacy then.

                              Just to put things in perspective. 15 of the 162 posts so far in this thread agree with your claims. That is 9.3%.
                              Unfortunately, all those 15 posts were made by you. No one else seem to share your unwarranted concerns. Please provide tangible evidence to support them or just agree to respectfully disagree with the majority and move on.
                              +1

                              Comment


                              • Why OSS Games suck

                                There are many reasons why OSS games are failing but for myself the number one reason was lack of tools. I am not going to get into a discussion about FPS games or other Genres. My genre is space flight sim/trading games like Privateer/Freelancer. I actually worked on the Vegastrike Privateer mod, Wing Commander Privateer: Gemini Gold. The biggest problem facing me was the lack of tools and developer support. The response from the lead programmer of Vegastrike was to learn Python or wait for a tool to get made. Well it's ten years later and no tool was ever made to create a star system or to create missions/levels. Everything in the game has to be scripted by hand. For a non-programmer this makes it impossible to mod the game. I want a simple 3d mission editor like Freespace2's FRED where I can place ships and create mission scripts by selecting objects and assigning times/actions to be completed. I do not want to have to get my head around 10,000 lines of python to get bored and then 6 months later when my interest picks up have to re-learn howto code missions. OSS has a very bad habit of getting stuck reinventing the wheel and not adding useful features to games. There's a reason why Freespace 2 has so many mods 10+ years after original release. The sourcecode to the game allowed the engine to be updated to have nicer graphics, and the entire game has 3d graphical tools from ship creators/importers/editors that let you place weapon hardpoints on ship models to the mission editor. Anyone can pickup the tools and create in seconds what the original game developers made.

                                In real game development studios, the programmers create tools for the artists to use to import models into the games native format. The mission editors etc don't always get released to the public but they do exist. Otherwise the programmers themselves handle all mission design elements. This needs to get fixed in OSS games. The reason the FPS games are so popular is they have editors as well as code. Cube/Saurebraten has its in-engine editor and the quake games have GTKRadiant. It's the games which do not have editors which are languishing or are remakes of other/older games. That's why there is very little content in OSS games. I think there needs to be a 3D game for each major genre with a full tool suite before Linux OSS gaming will do anything of note. Where is the racing game with tools where I can view my model in 3d and tell the game that the round bits on the car are wheels which should be spinning independantly of the rest of the model? At the moment all of that sort of programming has to be done by hand without tools. This is a major problem and it is scaring artists off of working on these games.

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