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Heavily-Upgraded Postal Hits Steam

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  • #31
    Originally posted by icculus View Post
    Fwiw, the "Fag Hunter" arcade machine was patched out after the original retail release, because RWS decided it went too far. It wasn't a mini-game, just a texture on an arcade machine. Is it really there in the Steam version? If it's really back, let me know and I'll remove it today.
    Can't help you there, I only have the lgp version.

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    • #32
      Ah yes, the tired old argument that tries to make arbitrary barriers onto human expression. Tell me, what does the Mona Lisa mean to you? What about it fulfills artistic requirements that Postal lacks (forethought, expression, message, form, craftsmanship, continuity)? Or are you merely buying these simplistic socially enforced walls and the closed-minded prudery promoted through social conditioning simply because you dare not think of it on your own? How is the Postal Dude's nihilism all that different than Hamlet's musings on death during the famous graveyard scene? How are his observations on all that is wrong around him any different than the Danish prince's?

      Stop being so up yourself that you tear down a person's work simply because it does not fulfill your own narrow-minded rules. There is more to art than reputation and patronage, and you are being too pig-headed to grasp it.

      EDIT: By the way, the ability to offend is an artistic quality just as much as film making you sad or a painting making you uplifted. Again, your narrow-mindedness is telling.
      Last edited by Hamish Wilson; 04-01-2013, 01:33 PM.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Hamish Wilson View Post
        How is the Postal Dude's nihilism all that different than Hamlet's musings on death during the famous graveyard scene? How are his observations on all that is wrong around him any different than the Danish prince's?
        If Postal is art, then support your argument beyond the playground "na-uh it's art" derp.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by yogi_berra View Post
          If Postal is art, then support your argument beyond the playground "na-uh it's art" derp.
          I have stated examples of Postal's artistic qualities. All you have you done is bluster and make sweeping proclamations with nothing to back up your claims. It is you that keeps on going "na-uh it is not art".

          Art is a concentrated form of human expression. Postal is most definitely expressive. Actually learn what art is before you feel able to actually debate on it.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Hamish Wilson View Post
            I have stated examples of Postal's artistic qualities. All you have you done is bluster and make sweeping proclamations with nothing to back up your claims. It is you that keeps on going "na-uh it is not art".

            Art is a concentrated form of human expression. Postal is most definitely expressive. Actually learn what art is before you feel able to actually debate on it.
            I'm not the one trying to justify his purchase of postal 2 by calling it art. You are and you have not supported your argument.

            How is the Postal Dude's nihilism all that different than Hamlet's musings on death during the famous graveyard scene?
            Please enlighten us, how is the Dude comparable to the Bard's Hamlet.

            How are his observations on all that is wrong around him any different than the Danish prince's?
            How are they the same and why are you jumping through silly hoops to justify your purchase?

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            • #36
              Originally posted by yogi_berra View Post
              I'm not the one trying to justify his purchase of postal 2 by calling it art.
              I do not justify my purchase of Postal 2 by calling it art, I justify my purchase because RWS are good people and good developers. That does not change the fact that it is.

              Originally posted by yogi_berra View Post
              You are and you have not supported your argument.
              Yes I have, even if you seem incapable of understanding my posts and have done nothing to dispute them other than say that you dispute them.

              Originally posted by yogi_berra View Post
              Please enlighten us, how is the Dude comparable to the Bard's Hamlet.
              Both frequently muse on the subject of death and our place in society, and both have something to say on how their comparative societies treat the people in them. They both have been treated to unfair circumstances and are struggling to discover the best ways in which they can handle them. Both are also rather over the top in depiction but are still rather introspective and prone to musing, even though I must admit that Hamlet is quite a bit more verbose and long winded. Hamlet and the Dude are also rather prone to sarcasm, passive aggressiveness, and you can question the sanity of both. And trust me, Hamlet was created as entertainment just as much as Postal 2 was. That satisfy you, or am I supposed to argue that it is art in some other way than proper artistic analysis?

              Originally posted by yogi_berra View Post
              How are they the same and why are you jumping through silly hoops to justify your purchase?
              Here is a definition of art:
              1. the products of human creativity; works of art collectively
              How does Postal 2 not fit this description? I do not think anyone can say that RWS is not creative at the very least.

              Your problem, I think, is that you believe the term "art" when applied to a work naturally applies a sense of quality or worth. Well, art is in the eye of the beholder, and if you believe one man's work of art is not of quality that is a perfectly fair position for you to take. But even then it is still art, even if you do not think highly of it, even if you do not feel it to be "fine art". It is not necessarily a mark of quality.

              I do find Postal 2's message and themes to be of merit, but you can simply see it as a bit of violent escapist fantasy if you wish. But please, do not try and build these arbitrary walls about something as broad as artistic human expression when you have done little to show you have actual comprehensive understanding of it.
              Last edited by Hamish Wilson; 04-05-2013, 02:38 PM.

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              • #37
                I agree with Hamish Wilson

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Cyber Killer View Post
                  I agree with Hamish Wilson
                  Why does seeing my name written down in someone's post like this make the hairs on the back of my neck stand up?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Hamish Wilson View Post
                    Yes I have, even if you seem incapable of understanding my posts and have done nothing to dispute them other than say that you dispute them.
                    No you haven't. The ad hominem wrapped in an appeal to authority speaks for itself, though.

                    Both frequently muse on the subject of death and our place in society, and both have something to say on how their comparative societies treat the people in them.
                    Care to point out where the Dude muses on Death and his place in society? Is this before or after he shoots the porn viewing Islamic gentlemen in the Library? In fact where does he muse on anything in the game?

                    When he says "I should kill the women and minorities first" how is that a comment on societies treatment of people?

                    They both have been treated to unfair circumstances and are struggling to discover the best ways in which they can handle them. Both are also rather over the top in depiction but are still rather introspective and prone to musing, even though I must admit that Hamlet is quite a bit more verbose and long winded. Hamlet and the Dude are also rather prone to sarcasm, passive aggressiveness, and you can question the sanity of both.
                    How is the Dude being fired, unfair? How is the attempt to arrest Gary Coleman unfair? How is his wife shooting him for forgetting her rocky road unfair?

                    There is nothing "unfair" about the Dude's circumstances, you should learn to recognize hackneyed plot devices for what they are: an excuse for exploitative game action.

                    That satisfy you, or am I supposed to argue that it is art in some other way than proper artistic analysis?
                    That wasn't a proper artistic analysis, but at least you attempted to explain yourself beyond an appeal to authority.

                    Here is a definition of art:
                    That's your problem. The only people willing to use that definition for art are the same people that allow Yoko Ono to dump piles of dirt in a room and continually pay Damien Hirst to view a dead cow. Stop allowing con-artists a free pass because you are too much of a coward to say "that's not art."

                    art (n)
                    1.) creation of beautiful things: the creation of beautiful or thought-provoking works, e.g. in painting, music, or writing
                    2.) beautiful objects: beautiful or thought-provoking works produced through creative activity
                    3.) branch of art: a branch or category of art, especially one of the visual arts
                    Unless you are incredibly inebriated while playing, Postal 2 does not fit any of these definitions. It is not thought-provoking in the least and no one can seriously call it beautiful, it's graphics were outdated on release.

                    How does Postal 2 not fit this description?
                    A bronzed turd on a neo-classical Greek pedestal fits that description. That is not art, it's a piece of shit. Postal 2 is not art, though I found it an enjoyable time-waster.

                    I do find Postal 2's message and themes to be of merit
                    Again, you make a claim without supporting it. Explain the message, the themes, and why you feel they have merit (no, a half-assed comparison to Hamlet is not explaining the merit in the themes in the game).

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by yogi_berra View Post
                      Stop allowing con-artists a free pass because you are too much of a coward to say "that's not art."
                      Offending the audience is a perfectly valid artistic choice, and challenging the definition of art is how art moves forward. Ask everyone from Henrik Ibsen to Andy Warhol, and many before and after them.

                      You don't have to think Postal 2 is art--you don't have to think the piles of dirt are, either--but it's not becoming to sit here and declare things to not be art with an appeal to ignorance ("coward," indeed). Perhaps better said: you certainly don't have to _like_ it, but if you didn't understand it, that didn't mean it wasn't art.

                      --ryan.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by yogi_berra View Post
                        Care to point out where the Dude muses on Death and his place in society?
                        Well, there are distinctions between the two mediums, so how it is expressed is going to be different. Hamlet, being an Elizabethan play, is going to consist of lengthy soliloquies on the matter while in Postal we have to rely instead on what the player himself sees, as well as the the comments offered up by the Dude and the people around him. It is somewhere in between were we can work out the Dude's thoughts on death and society, although the game tries to make the player himself more in charge of coming up with how they themselves should respond to it.

                        Originally posted by yogi_berra View Post
                        When he says "I should kill the women and minorities first" how is that a comment on societies treatment of people?
                        It is a play on political correctness, which incidentally is a code people are supposed to follow when dealing with people in society. Your statement actually already contained the answer to your own question.

                        Originally posted by yogi_berra View Post
                        How is the Dude being fired, unfair? How is the attempt to arrest Gary Coleman unfair? How is his wife shooting him for forgetting her rocky road unfair?
                        Being fired after re-locating your family to a new town the day after you arrived and never even being given a reason does not sound unfair to you? Does someone shooting you for something you have forgotten to do sound like a measured response to you? I am not even quite sure what point you are trying to make with this, but it certainly seems like life shitting on the Dude to me.

                        Originally posted by yogi_berra View Post
                        There is nothing "unfair" about the Dude's circumstances, you should learn to recognize hackneyed plot devices for what they are: an excuse for exploitative game action.
                        All plot devices are meant as an excuse for more action. So are you going to write off all narrative forms as no longer being art? Or is it just games?

                        Originally posted by yogi_berra View Post
                        That wasn't a proper artistic analysis, but at least you attempted to explain yourself beyond an appeal to authority.
                        To what authority am I appealing? I am not the one trying to create some sort of standard a creation has to attain in order to be considered art.

                        Originally posted by yogi_berra View Post
                        It is not thought-provoking in the least and no one can seriously call it beautiful, it's graphics were outdated on release.
                        The thing is, what you have done there is already an artistic critique in of itself.

                        Personally, I really like Postal 2's graphics as they are grungy, colourful, and over the top in a way that helps to dilute some of the dark themes explored while at the same time still managing to fit those themes like a glove. But that is my own critique of it.

                        Originally posted by yogi_berra View Post
                        Explain the message, the themes, and why you feel they have merit
                        I think here I will just take the lazy man's out and just re-post a link to a review that already does that fairly well:
                        http://web.archive.org/web/200502141...opic.php?t=629

                        This argument has already taken up too much time for both of us. :P

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by icculus View Post
                          Offending the audience is a perfectly valid artistic choice, and challenging the definition of art is how art moves forward. Ask everyone from Henrik Ibsen to Andy Warhol, and many before and after them.
                          Andy Warhol sold crap to rich morons. They lapped it up and called it great, not a good choice to defend art or moving art forward.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Hamish Wilson View Post
                            All plot devices are meant as an excuse for more action. So are you going to write off all narrative forms as no longer being art? Or is it just games?
                            Cheap and lazy plot devices are still cheap and lazy no matter the medium.

                            Personally, I really like Postal 2's graphics as they are grungy, colourful, and over the top in a way that helps to dilute some of the dark themes explored while at the same time still managing to fit those themes like a glove. But that is my own critique of it.
                            They fit the world they were created for but they weren't great.

                            This argument has already taken up too much time for both of us. :P
                            I've spent very little time on this, to be honest, and you didn't convince me that Postal 2 is art.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by yogi_berra View Post
                              Andy Warhol sold crap to rich morons. They lapped it up and called it great, not a good choice to defend art or moving art forward.
                              Yeah... and he sold them that crap intentionally to prove that point about the art industry

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by yogi_berra View Post
                                I've spent very little time on this, to be honest, and you didn't convince me that Postal 2 is art.
                                Well to be honest, I don't really need to convince you on it. I have already made my point for those who will receive it. Arguing with you over subjective opinions is getting us nowhere.

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