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Valve's Day of Defeat Released For Linux

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  • #61
    Originally posted by GreatEmerald View Post
    Steam currently has 136 games, Desura has 260.
    Actually at this very moment Steam only has 83 installable Linux games, most of the rest of that 136 is demos and dlc fluff. Best way to see the current Linux game count is to click on the search icon in the store without a search term, then change "All Items" to games and "Any OS" to Linux. That count goes up every couple of days, often in bursts of 2 or 3 games at a time.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Hamish Wilson View Post
      I am not against DRM for self-serving interests (as you say, the people who want grab the games for free can still get them) but for the fact it imposes unfair restrictions on me the gamer. Again, see my previous point.
      Believe it or not, I agree with you. DRM is an unfair restriction and I support every humble indie bundle. However mainstream publishers often have capital (ie investors) to deal with. if they say, 'anyone can copy and paste our game, but ppl are good and will pay for it' investors probably won't be very generous, if they give anything at all. If they say, 'look, we implement steam DRM, now ppl have to pay.' well it seems to be good enough for the current batch of games (and hopefully will give more confidence in Linux to other publishers).

      It's your prerogative on what to boycott, certainly. However I don't think Steam deserves it, not yet anyway,
      and this is a great chance to grab Windows gamers onto penguine love :-) No other game or platform has the ability to generate such a systemic change. Steam has its problems, but it is also giving Linux *a lot* IMHO. The Linux gaming rig is looking brighter than ever, unfortunetly all good things require compromise. And what they are asking isn't very much.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Zeroedout View Post
        and this is a great chance to grab Windows gamers onto penguine love :-) No other game or platform has the ability to generate such a systemic change. Steam has its problems, but it is also giving Linux *a lot* IMHO. The Linux gaming rig is looking brighter than ever, unfortunetly all good things require compromise. And what they are asking isn't very much.
        There are the concerns about us backing into a walled garden in the service of a purely political gesture, but I am hardly going after Valve with a pitchfork in my hand here. I still do not feel they have done enough to get my money out of me, and I will recognize their faults, but I am hardly going on an active campaign to scare people away from Valve, and I do recognize the value of their Linux efforts. But I do feel DRM should only be accepted if the people going for it know to what extent it works, and the amount I know has put me off it. I will still continue to buy all the non-DRM Linux games I can though, just as I have been doing for awhile.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Hamish Wilson View Post
          There are the concerns about us backing into a walled garden in the service of a purely political gesture, but I am hardly going after Valve with a pitchfork in my hand here. I still do not feel they have done enough to get my money out of me, and I will recognize their faults, but I am hardly going on an active campaign to scare people away from Valve, and I do recognize the value of their Linux efforts. But I do feel DRM should only be accepted if the people going for it know to what extent it works, and the amount I know has put me off it. I will still continue to buy all the non-DRM Linux games I can though, just as I have been doing for awhile.

          But Steams DRM is pretty much transparent to the user. I log in and the games I purchased the right to play are available in a list.

          I purchased a copy of Assissins Creed and from the very first time I tried to play it, it tells me I need to insert the original disc. It doesnt seem to care that it -IS- the original disc. I had to install the nocd crack in order tp play it. I lost my key for Doom3 and now it simply isnt possible to play the game even though I purchased it and do have the original discs. Even if I download a keygen the exe recognizes that it isnt a valid key..... These are just 2 examples of how DRM can go wrong....

          Then on the flip side, people who want to play games illegally can. Keygens and serials exist for most games, nocd cracks, modified exe files, resources hacks and more can all be found for just about every game that exists. Things like Daemon tools and Alcohol 52% make copying just about every disc format a very simple matter. And bittorrent has images available in the appropriate format for just about every game that exists....... DRM doesnt do jack shit.... NOTHING.... to prevent illegal usage of games.

          All DRM does is fuck legitimate users by making there experience more difficult, and does nothing at all to stop illegal usage....

          Steam on the other hand is completely transparent. Once you've purchased a game you will always have access to it and you'll never need a disc. The method of DRM they use is non-obtrusive and doesnt prevent me from playing my games or make it difficult for me to play them. As well it prevents people from stealing the games that I payed for. If I have to pay for it, then so should everyone else.
          Last edited by duby229; 03-16-2013, 11:07 PM.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by duby229 View Post
            Steam on the other hand is completely transparent. Once you've purchased a game you will always have access to it and you'll never need a disc. The method of DRM they use is non-obtrusive and doesnt prevent me from playing my games or make it difficult for me to play them. As well it prevents people from stealing the games that I payed for. If I have to pay for it, then so should everyone else.
            DRM is DRM, and it's never a good idea. What about people who can't afford to pay for a game but still want to try it? Why go against illegal downloaders? They're the customers of tomorrow.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by dee. View Post
              DRM is DRM, and it's never a good idea. What about people who can't afford to pay for a game but still want to try it? Why go against illegal downloaders? They're the customers of tomorrow.
              You're arguing in favor of making payments optional, which is fine, but that's different than arguing against DRM. Steam let's you download free trials, games, etc.

              You should be taking that argument to the game companies, not Valve.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by duby229 View Post
                But Steams DRM is pretty much transparent to the user. I log in and the games I purchased the right to play are available in a list.
                Which can be even worse. You don't know it's there... until it goes haywire. I have seen at least one instance when Steam servers went down for some reason, and people were locked out of all their games. What fun, eh.

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                • #68
                  You guys do realize the DRM in Steam is optional, right?

                  I mean, there is nothing in Steam that requires DRM. It let's you play in offline mode, if the game allows it.

                  So it's basically like every other system.

                  1. You have to log in to purchase the game - which has to be secure, by necessity.
                  2. If the game allows it, you can play in offline mode with no DRM.
                  3. If the game requires DRM, they can use Steam's lightweight version.
                  4. If the game require heavier DRM, they can implement their own 3rd party version.

                  Nothing in this is actually different from anywhere else you get games.

                  It's all up to the game developer - or more accurately, the investors who put up the money used to create the game, who dictate what kind of DRM they require.


                  Now, I guess what you can complain about is that Steam's implementation of DRM is so nice and unobtrusive that it makes people stop caring about DRM and harms the larger fight against it. Which yes, it clearly does. But from a end-user perspective, they are doing nothing but good. They allow no DRM if the devs will accept it, and try to create the nicest system possible if otherwise.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by duby229 View Post
                    I lost my key for Doom3 and now it simply isnt possible to play the game even though I purchased it and do have the original discs.
                    You have the source, just build Doom3 with that check removed.

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                    • #70
                      @smitty3268
                      Your post has it pretty much nailed in as far as overviewing the DRM situation on Steam, who to really blame for DRM, as well as the only semi-legitimate claim the rabidly anti-DRM crowd can really have against Valve's current minimal DRM options.

                      Many, though not nearly all, indie devs are making big headways in proving that DRM is not needed, while pirates prove every day that DRM is unsuccessful in its stated goals. Though in a world with too many publishers (read: pretty much ANY publishers), we are stuck with the unfortunate demands for DRM. In this situation some companies like Valve are trying to find a livable compromise that will work for both sides: minimal, unobtrusive DRM that stays out of the way of users and shuts up most idiot publishers.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by smitty3268 View Post
                        I mean, there is nothing in Steam that requires DRM. It let's you play in offline mode, if the game allows it.

                        So it's basically like every other system.

                        1. You have to log in to purchase the game - which has to be secure, by necessity.
                        2. If the game allows it, you can play in offline mode with no DRM.
                        3. If the game requires DRM, they can use Steam's lightweight version.
                        4. If the game require heavier DRM, they can implement their own 3rd party version.

                        Nothing in this is actually different from anywhere else you get games.

                        It's all up to the game developer - or more accurately, the investors who put up the money used to create the game, who dictate what kind of DRM they require.
                        You also have to download their client and accept its terms of service, install it, launch it, and have it running every time you want to launch an application, and remember to go to offline mode as soon as you buy a game. So no, this is far from no DRM.

                        What you failed to note, and which is actually relevant, is that developers can opt out of Steam's DRM altogether, in which case you don't need to have it running in order to launch the game. Which still leaves the burden of downloading, accepting and installing Steam, but at least it's much better than when they don't opt out of it. However, there are very few games like that, and the fact that they don't use Steam's DRM is usually not advertised anywhere, so there is no way to tell if it does use it or not.

                        As for investors, there is a clear case for no DRM, the developers just have to present it right. The facts are out there. And if they still don't agree, they are obviously poor investors to begin with.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Hamish Wilson View Post
                          Please refrain from bashing the existence of such games. Having plenty of games of one ilk does not stop other game titles from appearing.
                          Well, it does actually. I doubt the developers of these deathmatch FPSes work on other games projects. If they hadn't made deathmatch FPSes they might have made other sorts of games.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by GreatEmerald View Post
                            You also have to download their client and accept its terms of service, install it, launch it, and have it running every time you want to launch an application
                            And how is that different from your average game? Most of them used to have launcher apps that you used anyway, that "had to be running" every time you launched the game. And the games all have terms of service as well.

                            Anyway, you can rail on and on that DRM is evil, and i kind of agree. But the truth is that it would be suicide for Valve not to support it. If they didn't, Valve and Steam simply wouldn't exist. In fact, the whole PC gaming market probably wouldn't exist, and you'd only be able to play games on consoles now. If someone else would have come along with a replacement for Steam, it too would have either allowed for DRM or it would have failed, because none of the gaming publishers would have used it.

                            Things like the Humble Indie Bundles have done a lot to help convince people that DRM free gaming can work. It still hasn't been embraced by a single major company. It's just the indie folks so far who are desperate for small market share gains and attention that have accepted it. I hope in time, it becomes more popular, and Valve agrees. They've flat out said they don't like DRM either. It's just the cost of doing business today.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by 3rdalbum View Post
                              Well, it does actually. I doubt the developers of these deathmatch FPSes work on other games projects. If they hadn't made deathmatch FPSes they might have made other sorts of games.
                              You understand that Valve is just paying these guys to port their entire library, right? If they weren't working on this deathmatch FPS game, they might not even be working on linux at all.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by smitty3268 View Post
                                And how is that different from your average game? Most of them used to have launcher apps that you used anyway, that "had to be running" every time you launched the game. And the games all have terms of service as well.
                                Launchers are always either optional or an integral part of the game itself. That's different from Steam. The EULAs of games are also much different from the Steam EULA - they do not ask you to accept that you can lose all of the games you own whenever they decide to, because they are separate games.

                                Originally posted by smitty3268 View Post
                                Anyway, you can rail on and on that DRM is evil, and i kind of agree. But the truth is that it would be suicide for Valve not to support it. If they didn't, Valve and Steam simply wouldn't exist. In fact, the whole PC gaming market probably wouldn't exist, and you'd only be able to play games on consoles now. If someone else would have come along with a replacement for Steam, it too would have either allowed for DRM or it would have failed, because none of the gaming publishers would have used it.

                                Things like the Humble Indie Bundles have done a lot to help convince people that DRM free gaming can work. It still hasn't been embraced by a single major company. It's just the indie folks so far who are desperate for small market share gains and attention that have accepted it. I hope in time, it becomes more popular, and Valve agrees. They've flat out said they don't like DRM either. It's just the cost of doing business today.
                                If Valve tried to be more vocal about the whole non-DRM games on Steam deal, tried supporting such decisions, then I would understand. As it is, they have been dead quiet about it. It feels like they want as many people using their DRM as they can, because it makes them locked into their own platform.

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