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John Carmack Pushes Wine For Linux Gaming

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  • #51
    Originally posted by x616e View Post
    This guys response does not sound at all like any rational computer scientist.
    You do know he's not a computer scientist right?

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    • #52
      Originally posted by losinggeneration View Post
      You do know he's not a computer scientist right?
      No, I did not know that. Now I understand why the Doom 3 engine source is a complete mess.

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      • #53
        Originally posted by Micket View Post
        I just don't understand how he can suggest this, even if he's just interested in money. Actually selling something that uses wine, then you have to support that version as well. No trivial task. It's far from as simple as just saying "just buy the windows version, it should work under wine, we tested it".
        In fact, I'm sure that a native port would be easier to support and I'm surprised that Carmack thinks differently.
        That sort of software already exists. But they use wine internally.

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        • #54
          Originally posted by artivision View Post
          The bad thing is that wile with a new CPU they give as those libraries(BDver for example) for GCC, for a GPU they don't give the analogous MESA parts. That is happening because they don't want MESA to grow, because then other companies will come and break their monopoly (software is half the GPU).
          Sounds really dramatic, but it's not actually *true* or anything, at least not for Intel or AMD.

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          • #55
            Originally posted by bridgman View Post
            Sounds really dramatic, but it's not actually *true* or anything, at least not for Intel or AMD.

            Intel is ok. AMD gives only half the thing wile Nvidia let as guess from some PDFs. The thing with AMD is that we can't target their hardware efficiently, correctly, and we are missing capabilities (buffer management, instructions and others). With AMD its like they give you an AVX CPU and a GCC patch with SSSE3 target and optimization libraries.

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            • #56
              Originally posted by artivision View Post
              AMD gives only half the thing wile Nvidia let as guess from some PDFs. The thing with AMD is that we can't target their hardware efficiently, correctly, and we are missing capabilities (buffer management, instructions and others). With AMD its like they give you an AVX CPU and a GCC patch with SSSE3 target and optimization libraries.
              I don't really understand what you are saying here. What do you mean by buffer management, and what instructions are you talking about ? The instructions covered by the ISA docs (Instruction Set Architecture) are the same as we use internally.
              Last edited by bridgman; 02-05-2013, 05:44 PM.

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              • #57
                Originally posted by artivision View Post
                Intel is ok. AMD gives only half the thing wile Nvidia let as guess from some PDFs. The thing with AMD is that we can't target their hardware efficiently, correctly, and we are missing capabilities (buffer management, instructions and others). With AMD its like they give you an AVX CPU and a GCC patch with SSSE3 target and optimization libraries.
                It's all that proprietary IP that makes it difficult to just give out the code.

                Ok Intel is fully open source (on Linux) but I haven't heard even half-decent things about Intel GPU drivers, even on Windows. And the non-proprietary versions on Linux don't even match Windows performance if I recall Michael's benchmarks.

                This open GPU obsession makes my head spin. Having something that's capable of at least bringing up a display is nice, but otherwise 99.99% of all computer users use closed-sourced video drivers and it's worked for decades and frankly people just don't care. Functionality, performance and making things work as smooth as possible is going to win over the most consumers. Just an FYI for businesses interested in making money.

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                • #58
                  I think people need to tone down some of the hate. He is not being as unreasonable as some people here are making out. Read his reddit post:
                  http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/commen...enough/c89sfto

                  That is not to say that I agree with his WINE comments, but I think some of the bile here is uncalled for. Especially with this comment here:
                  However, I don’t think that a good business case can be made for officially supporting Linux for mainstream games today, and Zenimax doesn’t have any policy of “unofficial binaries” like Id used to have. I have argued for their value (mostly in the context of experimental Windows features, but Linux would also benefit), but my forceful internal pushes have been for the continuation of Id Software’s open source code releases, which I feel have broader benefits than unsupported Linux binaries.
                  And he is actually exactly right about the fact that the source code releases are more important - I would rather have access to a games source code be made available than a single port to a single platform any day. Especially since in doing so it decouples the games from Steamworks or any other potential forms of DRM. I am still waiting for the day I can play Rage natively on my machine without the Steamworks requirement, like what is possible with Doom3: BFG already. This idea I support fully

                  I do not support the idea of WINE as a primarily means for gaming however. I do use it and recognize it's value, but I am also well aware it's shortfalls. The sound is not working for me at the moment, and for the longest time doing anything with it (like launching FirstClass so I could send off my school assignments) would bork my sound server (it has now thankfully settled down somewhat and simply does not work without borking anything else). And there are so many other technical and practical reasons why his proposal is a bad idea, from increased overheard, worse support, and of course the message it sends out.

                  But just because we disagree with him does not mean he should be singled out for the abuse shown in this thread. Please, comment responsibly.
                  Last edited by Hamish Wilson; 02-05-2013, 06:36 PM.

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                  • #59
                    Originally posted by johnc View Post
                    This open GPU obsession makes my head spin. Having something that's capable of at least bringing up a display is nice, but otherwise 99.99% of all computer users use closed-sourced video drivers and it's worked for decades and frankly people just don't care.
                    I suggest you re-read your statement as it is internally inconsistent, or are you saying we are not people now?

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                    • #60
                      Originally posted by Hamish Wilson View Post
                      I think people need to tone down some of the hate. He is not being as unreasonable as some people here are making out. Read his reddit post:
                      http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/commen...enough/c89sfto
                      At your suggestion, I started to. I could not make it past the 1st sentence. "I wish Linux well, but the reality is that it barely makes it into my top ten priorities (Burn the heretic!);" Screw this. If Linux is not a priority for his business model, that's fine, it's his business and his choice. But indie Linux developers will pick up the slack from big game companies that don't want to be bothered. Their loss, our gain. I don't want to be bothered with Windows *anything* anymore, it has taken me something like 15 years to finally dump Microsoft for good. I believe in control of one's destiny, and that doesn't happen when one is small and dancing to Microsoft's tune. Carmack is big and established so he doesn't have to care, he's already got money to do whatever he likes.

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