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The Problems Right Now For Gaming On Linux

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  • #31
    Originally posted by curaga View Post
    The workload does show, many of the recent ports are rather buggy it seems.
    I don’t know about bugs but it would have been nice if he had taken the time to add alt-tab support in fullscreen games… Just something that switches to windowed mode, or iconifies the game…

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
      #3 There needs to be a better way to manage these repositories. I know that Ubuntu has a way to manage them but there has to be a better way. Like putting hotlinks in websites that you can click on and have it added to your system. Cause right now I keep bookmarks for repositories I want.
      Regarding external programs the easiest way is that a user only has to install a single package and the installed package itself generates the proper repository entries in the system. The DEB-packages of Steam and Google Chrome and many other external programs do follow this procedure.

      I also ran an update and accidentally got Wine 1.5.20, which doesn't play World of Warcraft anymore. So I gotta downgrade to 1.5.19, which is not a straight forward process.
      And because of this, adding repositories shouldn't be too easy. Users tend to install everything without thinking and a small hurdle ensures that the user thinks a least a little bit about what he is going to do.

      Comment


      • #33
        "There's a shortage of highly-qualified Linux game developer veterans for porting games to Linux. Linux Game Publishing isn't doing much these days"

        Why Michael didn't mention about Runesoft?
        I ask because this company come back to Linux after four years of the break and they start updating all games which ported to Linux:

        "i just got this game and it works so well on my ubuntu 12.10 and kind of liking it

        +2 votes reply to
        Runesoft Dec 11 2012, 9:37am replied:
        If demand is there for Cultures on Linux, it could be happening."

        http://www.desura.com/games/cultures...age/2#comments

        "What about Ankh 3 and other Runesoft Games only available on Mac OS ?"

        "kratz00 Nov 7 2012, 8:31pm replied:
        All I can say for now is, we are working on Airline Tycoon Deluxe and Northland, they will be available on Desura really soon. Next up will be Jack Keane and the Ankh series. The Ankh series will also include Ankh 3 for Linux for the first time ever, but probably not this year."

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by elanthis View Post

          ... what games exactly have you been playing? The _Vast_ majority of games I've played have never once crashed on me.

          Obviously, anything from Bethesda is not on that crash-free list.

          Also keep in mind that many, many game crashes are actually video driver bugs. Video drivers are both the most complex and more fragile software running on your computer besides the kernel itself. There's a reason Windows moved to a micro-kernel design just for WDDM; they got sick of having their OS called crashy and fragile just because AMD/NVIDIA/Intel couldn't deliver a stable driver.

          few examples
          Aliens vs Predator 1,2,3
          Grandprix 1 (on an Atari st) and 4 on win pc..
          star wars game (fps ) star trek game (fps)
          Left For dead 2
          Prey

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          • #35
            Originally posted by rang501 View Post
            I have seen that happening. Mostly with wine based software where fullscreen is being used.
            In Windows when video driver crashes, driver will be reloaded and you can happily use your computer, your game probably dies but you dont need to log in again and other apps are still running. In linux if driver dies, everything dies, you can lose a lot of work.
            Open Source drivers are way too unstable. Some desktop apps can crash drivers (or xserver) way too easily.
            Nope, if a driver dies in Linux, just that driver gets "disconnected" from the kernel. Any program connected to that hardware's driver that just error, will be terminated eventually. Some developers may not put extra code to recover from a crash, so the driver gets stuck and a reboot is require to resume. Some applications creates a temporary file, so the program can pick up where it left off. I do not know any game have this feature, so you are left redoing what you did in the game. In productivity applications that do not have this feature, save, save, save.

            X Window System is different compared to Windows. Also Linux is different than Windows how an application is loaded. Any X11 application that gets loaded is given a whole new environment. The X Window System has own environment. Any X11 applications that loaded are loaded as "sub-environments." If a graphics driver crashes, X Window System will seem that it is frozen. There is a command in X Window System that can be enabled to force detach keyboard and mouse from a program and give it back to X Window System to run a terminal program to terminate the program that froze.

            In Windows, if a driver crashes like the graphics driver, the whole OS just crashes or a "Blue Screen of Death." There are no ways to restart the GUI or Windows, but a reboot. Usually the game just crash, Windows have to dump the framebuffer that the game left and refresh the framebuffer with the desktop content. Windows 7 may be able to catch the crash from a driver, but it too has the same problems as other operating systems. If a graphics driver crashes, its GUI will not work. Linux can unload a driver including the graphics driver, but only it is not in use.

            When I play games on my computer, I have every program closed. Any work will be save. Any game you play is not written well, so expect crashes to occur. Though I am not a user that has every bell and whistle of GUI effects enabled because I prefer the minimal GUI like Xfce.

            I like to treat Linux like a roach. Linux limbs are like drivers. You tear its limbs off and it will still work. Can not do that to Windows.

            The open source drivers for ATI and AMD graphics are better than Intel graphics drivers. Also nouveau is probably even worst than Intel graphics.

            For several years of using Linux daily, X Window System have not crash on me unless I did something stupid in its config. Programs put in full-screen crashes on me here and there, but a quick CTL+ALT+F1...F6 (GUI is on VT7) gives me the ability to terminate the program. If I am a gamer, this is a lot nicer than in Windows. In Windows, it takes a while for Windows to say "program not responding." If I select terminate, Windows still will take while to terminate the program.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
              #3 There needs to be a better way to manage these repositories. I know that Ubuntu has a way to manage them but there has to be a better way. Like putting hotlinks in websites that you can click on and have it added to your system. Cause right now I keep bookmarks for repositories I want. I also ran an update and accidentally got Wine 1.5.20, which doesn't play World of Warcraft anymore. So I gotta downgrade to 1.5.19, which is not a straight forward process.
              Adding repositories or more package servers to the package manager creates problems like an instability of Linux. You should not add any repositories. It is best force Ubuntu to add programs that you like to their main servers, so your setup does not get broken. Ubuntu developers will test if the program works under the Ubuntu version.

              In Gentoo the highest Wine version is 1.4.1 at this time. Sure they have 1.5.20 in their tree, but it is not stable as an overall system setup to be used for production.

              Wine is a program that requires a new fake Windows directory to be created and Windows applications be re-installed for every Wine version upgrade or downgrade. It is best to hard set the version for Wine unless you do not mind doing a complete setup of all your Windows programs that you want Wine to run.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by tecknurd View Post
                The open source drivers for ATI and AMD graphics are better than Intel graphics drivers. Also nouveau is probably even worst than Intel graphics.
                Lol, no they are not.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by e8hffff View Post
                  Linux for home users is only coming together now. In the last few years work has been addressing gfx drivers, desktop and other UI to make controlling a Linux platform and its functionality, much easier.

                  If companies in the past tried Linux game sales they need to return and be with the community as it grows. They also need to bring unique titles and games that will promote the platform, example Role playing games. There has to be a reason someone would move from a console or Windows to Linux regarding games.

                  Linux needs game makers that will code and make great titles only for Linux. It needs to prove itself.
                  ? I think the opposite is true... or lets say it this way... what you want to be true is true anyway...

                  I mean what are the 2 reason why linux is not successful on the desktop... 1. few games 2. no microsoft office or office that is fully compatible with ms-office formats... on the other side where you say "there need to be a reason" there are plenty or reasons... 1. linux doesnt cost you money... then you get a desktop that is usable for working in contrast to windows... at least till now they never had different workplaces whats absolutly needed for working you cant just use one desktop for all your tasks... thats brainfuck... its a bit like you are not using a multitask able os... yes its kind of possible to use multitasking but the guy is not optimised for it...

                  then you have all the better installion-options... better upgrade system etc... more security... and even under windows most users should fast learn that opensource software is nearly always better if there is a equivalent version of opensource vs a closed-source programm... you just get what you want no adware (ok there are a few exceptions sadly). So even under windows the first thing I do when I search a software... I just invest if needed long time to absolutly find a opensource alternative... and only if there is absolutly no alternative I maybe use propriatary version... because they are never free not even free of charge... it has a money-making reason to not release the source code... so if you not pay directly money, you will see adware or something else... so opensource is like a "organic" or "fair trade" logo for software basicly more "organic" because its not primary about the work-circumstances of the developers but of the quality of the software... because at least there are no anti-features included...

                  but except the last point... you have basicly nothing vs a console... except maybe that maybe xbmc or something like that works... and you have no real good alternative for the consoles... and all the pc vs console advantages...

                  But yes at the moment I think android gaming has more potential than the steam-linux-console thing... but maybe I am wrong... and on the pc, buy-titles are dead nearly anyway... I think f2p is at least for the next years the primary market... if they will bring that to linux you really dont need to pay one dime for software to start playing that can also a console not deliver because there are basicly no f2p games for them...
                  Last edited by blackiwid; 01-01-2013, 06:48 AM.

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                  • #39
                    "no f2p games"

                    Heard of FOSS games? These are actually free and paying won't give you an advantage.

                    "I mean what are the 2 reason why linux is not successful on the desktop... 1. few games 2. no microsoft office or office that is fully compatible with ms-office formats..."

                    MS-office formats are plague and you should avoid them. Go ODF! Now, the question is, when will people use these...

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by tecknurd View Post
                      Nope, if a driver dies in Linux, just that driver gets "disconnected" from the kernel. Any program connected to that hardware's driver that just error, will be terminated eventually. Some developers may not put extra code to recover from a crash, so the driver gets stuck and a reboot is require to resume. Some applications creates a temporary file, so the program can pick up where it left off. I do not know any game have this feature, so you are left redoing what you did in the game. In productivity applications that do not have this feature, save, save, save.

                      X Window System is different compared to Windows. Also Linux is different than Windows how an application is loaded. Any X11 application that gets loaded is given a whole new environment. The X Window System has own environment. Any X11 applications that loaded are loaded as "sub-environments." If a graphics driver crashes, X Window System will seem that it is frozen. There is a command in X Window System that can be enabled to force detach keyboard and mouse from a program and give it back to X Window System to run a terminal program to terminate the program that froze.

                      In Windows, if a driver crashes like the graphics driver, the whole OS just crashes or a "Blue Screen of Death." There are no ways to restart the GUI or Windows, but a reboot. Usually the game just crash, Windows have to dump the framebuffer that the game left and refresh the framebuffer with the desktop content. Windows 7 may be able to catch the crash from a driver, but it too has the same problems as other operating systems. If a graphics driver crashes, its GUI will not work. Linux can unload a driver including the graphics driver, but only it is not in use.

                      When I play games on my computer, I have every program closed. Any work will be save. Any game you play is not written well, so expect crashes to occur. Though I am not a user that has every bell and whistle of GUI effects enabled because I prefer the minimal GUI like Xfce.

                      I like to treat Linux like a roach. Linux limbs are like drivers. You tear its limbs off and it will still work. Can not do that to Windows.

                      The open source drivers for ATI and AMD graphics are better than Intel graphics drivers. Also nouveau is probably even worst than Intel graphics.

                      For several years of using Linux daily, X Window System have not crash on me unless I did something stupid in its config. Programs put in full-screen crashes on me here and there, but a quick CTL+ALT+F1...F6 (GUI is on VT7) gives me the ability to terminate the program. If I am a gamer, this is a lot nicer than in Windows. In Windows, it takes a while for Windows to say "program not responding." If I select terminate, Windows still will take while to terminate the program.
                      On my laptop (quite old, 7300 GO), nvidia driver seems to die quite often (wlm + photoshop + aero combination), screen goes black and it takes few seconds to restore itself (it shows me information bubble about a graphics driver crash). I havent seen any BSOD-s lately with win7.
                      Nouveau is quite problematic driver. Sometimes simple window resize can crash a whole xserver.
                      In my opinion, Xserver shouldn't die, when driver crashes. It should run as best it can and try to reload driver again (fallback into vesa mode?). every software piece contains bugs and xserver should be able to recover from it. Hardware failure is a different case, recovering from that is quite difficult, i think. In short, applications shouldn't be able to kill xserver at all.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by tecknurd View Post
                        ...

                        Wine is a program that requires a new fake Windows directory to be created and Windows applications be re-installed for every Wine version upgrade or downgrade. It is best to hard set the version for Wine unless you do not mind doing a complete setup of all your Windows programs that you want Wine to run.
                        What, I have had the same wineprefix for years now(from wine 1.0 to now 1.5.19). I have installed different distro too(from 32bit kubuntu 10.04 to 64bit kde mint 13), but keep the same wineprefix and all installed windows programs works as they were first time I installed them. Only upgrading thing is that wine-gecko-thingy, which will be downloaded every time I start some program through wine after updating wine.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Bomyne View Post
                          I also have no problem with DRM as long as it doesn't detract from the experience. It's why I like Steam. Steam's DRM for the most part is just silent in the background but if a DRM starts to interfere with my operating system, or shuts down the game if I lose connectivity for a split second, then I have a problem with it.
                          well, i wellcome the positive effect of steam for linux gaming, but calling steam a good exemple for a non-detracting DRM is hilarious!

                          it was one of the first drm system i started to avoid on windows, one of the most annoying ones. of course meanwhile other companies managed to create some even more annoying systems, but that doesn't make steam better.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by elanthis View Post
                            Except for when they can't get it to work. Because really, 99% of "advanced Linux users" aren't nearly all that advanced. In either case, when they can't get it to work, this costs the company money, in two ways.

                            First, the wanna-be elitist users just go around bad-mouthing the company's "crappy" products and poor "Linux" support, which costs the company sales from other potential customers.

                            Second, the company has to process refunds, which has overhead. Overall, an unhappy customer costs more than no customer, which is why successful companies try so very hard to both make their customers happy and target advertising and sales only to demographics that they know they can keep happy. And in the world of software, that often means only targeting one major OS.
                            Just curious how much do you think pirates using Windows cost gaming companies? I bet you couldn't even get a 10th of a percent in comparison to those who badmouth bad ports in a specific Disto's community.

                            FWIW most games that are buggy fail across the board. Yet to lend some credence to your argument it can sometimes it's driver specific, perhaps WM specific, composter or something to do with SELinux but I have yet to see a game crash because you're using a distro that's not Ubuntu but has the same kernel and dependencies.

                            I have no idea why you're so condescending you must be jealous because you can't use one of the "elitist" disto's.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
                              #3 There needs to be a better way to manage these repositories. I know that Ubuntu has a way to manage them but there has to be a better way. Like putting hotlinks in websites that you can click on and have it added to your system. Cause right now I keep bookmarks for repositories I want. I also ran an update and accidentally got Wine 1.5.20, which doesn't play World of Warcraft anymore. So I gotta downgrade to 1.5.19, which is not a straight forward process.
                              openSUSE solved it a while ago with YaST 1-Click Install. It still has a few rough edges, but overall it works quite well.

                              Originally posted by Adarion View Post
                              LAWLOMG. Yeah, this is probably still around.
                              The thing is there are soooo many Windoze people definitely NOT being correctly licensed. If you would make a worldwide license audit... omg.
                              Actually, yea, this is a bit of a Fridge Logic moment. If Linux users were fond of pirating, why the heck would they be using Linux, and not simply pirated Windows? It makes no sense.
                              Now there could be some truth in that Linux users may not want to pay for software. But in that case they are not customers to begin with, as they would have never bought it on Windows just the same. And, as HIBs show, there is definitely a considerable amount of people who do pay.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Calinou View Post
                                "no f2p games"

                                Heard of FOSS games? These are actually free and paying won't give you an advantage.

                                "I mean what are the 2 reason why linux is not successful on the desktop... 1. few games 2. no microsoft office or office that is fully compatible with ms-office formats..."

                                MS-office formats are plague and you should avoid them. Go ODF! Now, the question is, when will people use these...
                                yes ms-office is the less strong argument... I think people would switch to odf if nothing else they would miss. But still after gaming its one of the biggest points why people do not migrate to linux, especially companies. And yes of course thats plague. I dont talk about me I talk about MS-Only-users.

                                The more important point is only a few opensource games... and often at least graficly not very advanced... so something like steam is a big thing if you want to bring more users to linux. if it would be successful and really a big chunk of game developers would port their stuff to linux because of steam... that could create a self-accelleration-process more games -> more users -> more games ->...

                                But of course for the price that this all then are non-free linuxes... so thats its not opensource anymore, or only some parts are opensource.

                                But ok if the question for mid time range is, do most users keep using totaly nonfree in any way pure drm windows system or do they use linuxes with some closedsource and some drm... I think the last thing would be better.

                                But of course that can only be a step between real freedom... because you will not reach the mass of peoples when you say... only use totaly free software and hardware or if you cant do that either dont use computers at all or go shoot yourself you harm people...

                                I mean you can say that... and I find it good that you remind people of this (or something similar to that) because at some point they are more sensitive for that viewpoint... and they will things that happen see with other eyes, and at some point they realise that they have to at least search longer for opensource alternatives before they give away their freedom...


                                I think btw, that opensource is not the solution it is more a demonstration of some practices for the future... like wikipedia is, it shows as example that people work not primary for money but for a meaning... that could make us easier able to understand that we have to intertruce basic income grant... and people are generally more free and then it will also become more easy for the free software movement to find more people using their time to make software for others for free... or some people can more easily create new startups which maybe make only opensource stuff like with kickstarter or something like that...

                                And opensoruce as example or free software will not be the solution of our climate and poorness problems... they can maybe be a small part of the solution but not more...

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