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Torque 3D Game Engine Going Open-Source

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  • #16
    The press release + linked blog post are not clear. Does the drop include the editor and other pipeline tools, or not?

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    • #17
      Originally posted by curaga View Post
      The press release + linked blog post are not clear. Does the drop include the editor and other pipeline tools, or not?
      From their blog:
      Employee David Montgomery-Blake
      David MontgomeryBlake
      #95
      09/11/2012 (9:56 am)
      Not really. You get the full engine and source code. The Toolbox still has some proprietary QT code in it so we cannot currently release its source, but we are hoping to get it updated with the open source version of QT after the release so that everyone has access to those internals as well.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by log0 View Post
        And what makes you think so? I am not sure what effect(fancy stuff) could be so complex/difficult that one shouldn't even think about it.
        It's not AN effect. It's a bunch of them. SSDO (that'd be the succesor to SSAO), CE3's water quality, the way CE3 handles particles (shadows, reflections, how a lot of them don't affect FPS as bad as other engines), a scripting system you can use in 3 different ways (FlowGraph, LUA and C++)... I'm not quoting more because I am not fully aware of what Torque can do (can't bother to watch the demo again and analyze it), but I bet my behind there are a lot more things to quote.

        Originally posted by yogi_berra View Post
        To quote Tim Cain in a recent Codex interview:
        We are not talking about games, but game engines. If a game engine allows the developer to make their game much better, it is superior, wether or not devs actually make good games. Also, there are genres where superior graphics make for a better gameplay, rather than a better view. There are also times where that works the opposite way.
        Examples: Fallout 3/NV. Are those games good? Heck yeah! Would better graphics improve on the roleplay experience? Most probably!.
        Fallout 1/2 (just to mention a saga where their games are vastly different). Are those games good? Of course! (I do not personally "love it", but I can easily see why many people do) Would they benefit from better graphics? Mmmmh, not much. They rely more on text than on visuals to tell a story.
        Team Fortress 2: Is that game good? Holy shit yes! Would it be better with more realistic visuals? Uhhhh, no. It's artstyle doesn't work that way.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by yogi_berra View Post
          To quote Tim Cain in a recent Codex interview:
          I still wonder why so many people think that fun games and good graphics are mutually exclusive.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by TobiSGD View Post
            I still wonder why so many people think that fun games and good graphics are mutually exclusive.
            Graphics are the least important part of a good game. Without the mechanics behind the graphics, all the pretty bloom, DoF, motion blur, etc. amount to a hill of beans.

            Unless you are willing to argue that people are playing Angry Birds for the graphics, of course.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by BoTuLoX View Post
              It's not AN effect. It's a bunch of them. SSDO (that'd be the succesor to SSAO), CE3's water quality, the way CE3 handles particles (shadows, reflections, how a lot of them don't affect FPS as bad as other engines), a scripting system you can use in 3 different ways (FlowGraph, LUA and C++)... I'm not quoting more because I am not fully aware of what Torque can do (can't bother to watch the demo again and analyze it), but I bet my behind there are a lot more things to quote.
              Where have I stated that it is "AN"(a single) effect? I asked for a specific one that would be too complex as you said before. And sorry SSDO can't be it. It is a screen space effect(as SSAO) and should be easy to integrate, eventually without even changing a single line of the engine source code(depending on how flexible it is) just by adding the ssdo shader(s), adjusting gbuffer layout eventually. The trend has been to move more calculations into screen space, there are a number of effects(fancy stuff) that are/can be implemented this way.
              Last edited by log0; 09-12-2012, 01:53 AM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by yogi_berra View Post
                Graphics are the least important part of a good game. Without the mechanics behind the graphics, all the pretty bloom, DoF, motion blur, etc. amount to a hill of beans.

                Unless you are willing to argue that people are playing Angry Birds for the graphics, of course.
                So you are thinking that Skyrim, Crysis, Far Cry, GTA IV or other such titles would be as good as they are with crappy graphics, just because the game mechanics are good?
                I don't think so. Some games rely on good graphics to get the best immersion into the game world for the player. You can have the best game mechanics and nobody will play it if the graphics don't allow you to dive into the game world.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by TobiSGD View Post
                  Some games rely on good graphics to get the best immersion into the game world for the player. You can have the best game mechanics and nobody will play it if the graphics don't allow you to dive into the game world.
                  some games rely on good fun mechanics
                  people still play CS, starcraft, war3, plants vs zombies etc.

                  on the other hand graphics are the most demanding part of a game engine and must thus be written good
                  another part of a game engine that is hard to write is proper AI

                  PS forms of AA can be "injected" or just forced in the drivers in pretty much any accelerated 3D game(i use FXAA in xonotic), and most effects are mostly shaders run on a gpu again being easy to add
                  Last edited by gens; 09-12-2012, 05:32 AM.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by gens View Post
                    some games rely on good fun mechanics
                    people still play CS, starcraft, war3, plants vs zombies etc.

                    on the other hand graphics are the most demanding part of a game engine and must thus be written good
                    another part of a game engine that is hard to write is proper AI

                    PS forms of AA can be "injected" or just forced in the drivers in pretty much any accelerated 3D game(i use FXAA in xonotic), and most effects are mostly shaders run on a gpu again being easy to add

                    But you can buy this old games at a super cheap price. I doubt that people would be willing to pay a higher price that is needed to finance a new game with such old graphics.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by TobiSGD View Post
                      So you are thinking that Skyrim, Crysis, Far Cry, GTA IV or other such titles would be as good as they are with crappy graphics, just because the game mechanics are good?
                      You're not supporting your argument very well with and you are completely missing the point.

                      Skyrim - Well it is a nice hiking simulator, and is great for larping; but once you stop larping that you playing an RPG you realize you are playing one of the shallowest, least thought through adventure games released in the last two years. Not only can you join diametrically opposed organizations, you can lead them both with no consequence because your character is just awesome.

                      While it is clear that Todd Howard is touched with awesome as evidenced by the next DLC allowing me to larp that I am playing the sims, the only great thing about Skyrim is summarized by this and I find that sad.

                      Far Cry - Are you kidding me? You can't find a more generic FPS than Far Cry. While the real-time physics for Far Cry 3 look interesting that doesn't change the fact that it is still a generic FPS relying on teh shiny to sell itself.

                      GTA IV - Are you trolling? GTA IV is easily the worst of the series. The class action they lost over the sex mini-game killed their creativity.

                      Some games rely on good graphics to get the best immersion into the game world for the player. You can have the best game mechanics and nobody will play it if the graphics don't allow you to dive into the game world.
                      If you are relying on teh shiny to sell your game you will lose money when the next shiny thing comes along.

                      Note: None of this means games have to look like shit, it just means that graphics aren't nearly as important as you and several marketing departments want us to think.

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                      • #26
                        To put it a different way and just to illustrate the incredibly shallow nature of what you are claiming is important: You can marry Kate Moss today but eventually she is going to look like Phyllis Diller (RIP) without the personality.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by yogi_berra View Post
                          Far Cry - Are you kidding me? You can't find a more generic FPS than Far Cry. While the real-time physics for Far Cry 3 look interesting that doesn't change the fact that it is still a generic FPS relying on teh shiny to sell itself.
                          You've got to be kidding me, either that or you never actually played the games. The original Far Cry was by no means a generic shooter. In fact arguably the original Farcry is the antithesis of a generic shooter, It's got a massively open world, and allowed you to approach things however you wanted, including the stealth approach which I usually took (although there were some bugs like enemies being able to see through tents), as well it's a game that forces you to do target prioritization otherwise you will be killed, and going by FPS standards the story was actually very good.

                          Far Cry 2 also doesn't deserve the generic shooter title that you're putting on it even though it's less of a game than the original. It also had massive open world maps and approaches, and the way the game worked was the same pattern that Wing Commander:Privateer, The Witcher, and S.T.A.L.K.E.R. take, and that in and of itself is very rare in gaming period let alone the FPS genre.

                          I really don't see where you get off calling this series generic, unless you never actually played the games yourself.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Luke_Wolf View Post
                            In fact arguably the original Farcry is the antithesis of a generic shooter
                            Seriously? It's a game where you the player must stop the super secret shadowy organization from taking over the planet by killing them. That is every single FPS ever made.

                            I found it quite boring and predictable. So much so that I am glad it was bundled with my video card so I didn't feel ripped off by playing it.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by yogi_berra View Post
                              Seriously? It's a game where you the player must stop the super secret shadowy organization from taking over the planet by killing them. That is every single FPS ever made.

                              I found it quite boring and predictable. So much so that I am glad it was bundled with my video card so I didn't feel ripped off by playing it.
                              Uh... you're doing it wrong. What you're doing is watching porn for the plot. You don't discard an FPS on its story, you discard it if the way you shoot at things feels bad (you name it, too repetitive, lack of innovation, feels clunky, etc).

                              If you want something like an FPS but with actual story, and story being one of the major selling points, you should be looking at Fallout 3/New Vegas, Deus Ex: Human Revolution, MAYBE Half-Life saga (you really have to figure out most things by yourself, or even read them on the Internet)...

                              Maybe FPS isn't your genre? I for one have been disliking FPS more and more as time passes...

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by yogi_berra View Post
                                Seriously? It's a game where you the player must stop the super secret shadowy organization from taking over the planet by killing them. That is every single FPS ever made.

                                I found it quite boring and predictable. So much so that I am glad it was bundled with my video card so I didn't feel ripped off by playing it.

                                That's an extreme oversimplification and you know it.
                                It went like this:
                                [spoiler]
                                You're an ex-military guy who was hired by a lady (who was actually talent searching), to take her to this island, your speedboat ends up getting attacked and destroyed and you end up escaping into this cave, with the character not really knowing what's going on other than that these people are now alerted to his presence and trying to kill him, after a bit of sneaking around you enter into this storeroom section of the cave and there's a radio/locator device and you're being told that you need to follow this guys orders in order to get out of there alive, after doing a number of things you learn that there is bioengineering going on creating monsters, and that they've broken loose throughout the island. You're not entirely sure what's going on but you now know the purpose of the island. You continue being led on, eventually freeing the woman who you took out to this island who had been captured, I'm forgetting how this goes but you're told that you're both "infected" and that you have to get the antidote from the guy running the place. Well you get the antidote and inject it in both of you and then you go in to deal with the guy running the place (who has mutated himself) and he tells you that you've been betrayed that that wasn't an antidote but actually the mutagen itself, and I believe he tells you where the real antidote is, anyway you're slowly mutating and eventually I believe you're transformed and later you get the antidote. In either case it's time to kill the guy who betrayed you and is taking off with the mutagen.
                                [/spoiler]

                                tl;dr - It's a variant off of The Island of Dr. Moreau

                                If you really are paying attention and understand what's going on in the game you're left with a "This is what half-life is claimed to be but really wasn't"

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