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id Software: Linux Hasn't Produced Positive Results

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  • #46
    Basically i can understand JC, but i dont see it so negative. First of all with the right gfx card you can play Rage with wine. It does not work with Intel onboard and it did not work with fglrx and my hd 5670, but worked even with my old nv 8800 gts 512. And that works so well because of OpenGL - D3D games run MUCH slower. The id developer who did the Linux ports left the company so maybe a bad timing to ask for one. In the case that steam will be successfull on Linux (or a steambox) i am sure somebody will work on it. It would be good when at least fglrx could run Rage via wine - i see no huge diff to a possible native game, so amd devs should not put their head into the sand all the time. Rage got that bad reputation mainly because of bad amd opengl drivers. While there is no cuda support for amd cards one thing is however interesting: there is no nvidia sli profile but a crossfire one (on win).

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    • #47
      Originally posted by bug77 View Post
      What do we get instead? Games that you can no longer buy, just rent and play for as long as some think they should keep their servers up. With the occasional added bonus of lag in single player!
      ++

      Like my LOTRO version I bought a couple of years ago and worked just fine with wine on Linux. A few months ago I wanted to check it out again and noticed that not only the company sold their business and all the accounts are gone, my key isn't worth anything (still got the ring at least ). The client is now free for download and I am not sure about their business model...

      I can even understand that a MMORPG is only as long available as they run their servers, the same business model for single player games doesn't make sense to me...

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      • #48
        Originally posted by byteframe View Post
        Who cares? Rage runs perfect in wine.

        Is Rage another corridor game, suited for consoles?

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Alliancemd View Post
          I was saying the same thing since the announcement of Valve being interested in Linux.
          Linux has 1% desktop market share, from this 1% take the gamers which in Linux are just in a VERY VERY small amount.
          Now take from this gamers the ones that are ready to pay, it goes almost to 0%. Ubuntu Software Center can be as a good demonstration that almost all of the Linux users don't want to pay a cent for software.
          Linux is not a good platform for developers to make money on. And IDSoftware had to feel it on their skin. Put in a lot of effort to port and have additional expenses for nothing.
          I think your market share is a very wrong, we both cant tell how much it is exactly because there is no linux-soft coorp that sells copys of it and even then there would be cracked versions out there... or just copied ones ^^
          But when even Ubuntu has 2,5% Desktop Market Share of preinstalled systems.

          http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...tem&px=MTA5ODM

          and other distries like fedora or debian will selled shurely sometimes for desktop too, but even if we take that number we have here 2,5% of the linuxusers just with preinstalled systems, ok theats new systems and they selled not so much the last 5 years, but there are of course more people who did manually install a linux than which are bought them directly on the hardware, because only 5-10% rich people do that, because dell-pcs are not that cheap ^^.

          Or does anybody here know more guys that have bought hardware with linux on it, than people who installed it from usb/cd? Even on noob-sites like german computerbase where >90% are Windows users, I read only from guys who have questions or say that its good and so on and how they installed it how easy/difficult that was... so most there dont buy linux-hardware too but many tried it out with more or less sucess... so 5% would be a very save guess if you count dualboot systems.

          And then you forget enother effekt, many users dont use Linux because there are no games, so if Valve and other companies start to support it, there will be some amount of users which start to use linux because they thought maybe anyway about it, but did not switch because of the bad commercial game support.

          And I think, even I am such a jurk that would not buy closedsource game for linux with drm, there are much more linux users or at least around 50% who just dont care about that. maybe even more than 50%

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          • #50
            It's an interesting one but I think Valve has as much chance as anyone at turning things around.

            Its why I appreciate Valve so much, they are very "different" to most companies and don't mind venturing into something a little brave or unexpected. I also believe Valve and their Steam product has been a large reason PC gaming is thriving the way it is, compared to what people were saying years ago.

            Just with Steam's catalog, you know, when games have "Linux" mentioned in the SteamPlay section and the system requirements alone will bring more attention to this alternative operating system and I for one, am really only hanging onto Windows at the moment to play TF2 and maybe a couple other games. As soon as we have a proper Linux client I'd ditch my Windows and I don't imagine I'm the only one. And I'd pay for any new games that were ported, especially since I wouldn't be spending money on Windows.

            Interesting times ahead.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by kwahoo View Post
              The id way:
              1. Sell games with Windows-only executable
              2. Put free (as beer) Linux executable on website
              3. HOW Linux users could "pay bills"?

              The Valve way:
              1. Sell games with Steamplay support - user (Mac/Windows/Linux) pays only once
              2. Check plaftorm statistics

              PS TTimo (only Linux-friendly man) doesn't work in id anymore...
              THIS is a very important point that needs to be underlined, circled, highlighted, bold faced, and put in BIG FONT and then shoved down ID's software's inbox... I'm sure according to ID software, 100% of their sales is Windows but that's only because they forced Linux users to buy the Windows product and then find-out-for-themselves how to get the linux binaries installed for ID Software's horrendously slow FTP server.

              I think it's pretty clear that from the Humble Bundle sales and how popular games like Heroes of Newerth, oilrush, etc. are.. That there is *plenty* of demand for games on Linux..

              I think Carmack is just a little resentful because his games haven't been selling very well since Doom III's failure. I'd also mention that the modifications to the games that ID Software shipped (Quake 3 Modifications, Enemy Territory, etc.) ended up being MUCH more popular than the original games themselves..

              I remember years ago when I was working on a team doing modifications to Quake 3 Arena, we had a decent handful of linux users. Some of which were making source code contributions to the mod which makes those users 100x more valuable than the Windows users.

              I'm still surprised it was Carmack that made those comments.. He was such a cool dude back in the day, but not so much anymore..

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Yfrwlf View Post
                I will never buy a game from the Ubuntu Software Center, even though I usually run Ubuntu, because they don't give you a cross-distro application. Application freedom, the freedom to run your games and other programs on any Linux distro you want, is a requirement for me as I refuse to be bound to a proprietary Linux OS. If they provide straight-up normal binaries or cross-distro installers, I pay. Desura has provided those things with Oil Rush and Trine 2, so I had no problem paying for those games.
                Just an FYI... All the games that I bought through the Ubuntu Software Center was very easy to install on my Debian laptop. cp -r and you're done... The games are *NOT* loaded with DRM and they are very easy to burn to CD or archive any way you like.. Also, the games are redownloadable, so if you need HD space on your laptop, you can just delete it and download it again later.

                I for one, like the Ubuntu Software Center.. It certainly isn't a steam replacement, but it could very well have become one someday if Valve had continued to ignore Linux.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Sidicas View Post
                  Just an FYI... All the games that I bought through the Ubuntu Software Center was very easy to install on my Debian laptop. cp -r and you're done... The games are *NOT* loaded with DRM and they are very easy to burn to CD or archive any way you like.. Also, the games are redownloadable, so if you need HD space on your laptop, you can just delete it and download it again later.

                  I for one, like the Ubuntu Software Center.. It certainly isn't a steam replacement, but it could very well have become one someday if Valve had continued to ignore Linux.
                  My only gripe with Software Center is that it doesn't appear to be version specific, or at least the apps aren't. Too often you can download something that just doesn't work with the current point release. I think it could improve with a better user feedback model (more than just a primitive star rating), and maybe a bit of hardware config snooping. No stealing personal info, just a user opt-in for sharing system specs to help provide developers with more information on what works and what doesn't. Eventually, with such feedback, software center could better filter results, only showing you what works with your specs. Software Center needs to be very reliable before purchases make more sense.

                  As for the comment about how Linux users are cheap. I've always been cheap with software. When I had a Mac, I used mostly free Apps. For Windows, I use Office 2000 and Paint Shop Pro 9. I don't want to upgrade to the newest Office because of Ribbon, and Paint Shop Pros turned into phone-home-ware shortly after v9. I'll buy games, but not the $60 new releases.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post

                    The last one is important because there is lots of people still using Windows XP, and they don't care about upgrading to Windows 8 or bothering with Linux. They have no reason to.
                    Of course they do.. The majority of Windows games on the market now are OpenGL 4.X / DirectX 11... Neither of which is supported by XP, or open source Linux at this time.. That's why most serious gamers are running Windows 7 now.... and I think Gabe is right that Windows 8 will basically be the next Vista which brings a LOT of opportunity.. The last time Vista was released, the market share of Mac OS X went through the f-ing roof.. I remember those "allow or deny" apple commercials and such making fun of just how horrible Vista was at the time...

                    Originally posted by bug77 View Post
                    Gee, could this lukewarm reception have anything to do with the fact that all id games since Quake2 and maybe Quake3, I don't know, sucked? Imho, anything past Quake3 was little more than a tech demo.
                    Agreed..
                    Last edited by Sidicas; 08-04-2012, 10:04 PM.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Sidicas View Post
                      The majority of Windows games on the market now are OpenGL 4.X / DirectX 11... Neither of which is supported by XP, or open source Linux at this time...
                      OpenGL 4.x is supported under Windows XP Of course Linux open source drivers doesn't support this API at this time, but for an incoming linux gamers (I hope) closed source drivers will be better choice, because 3D performance on FGLRX and ForceWare is really good (close the same as on Windows). I hope that ID will be back with full Linux support for their games soon. If they'll release Rage for Linux I'll buy this game, because similar to others users I don't want to play in this game on wine.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Sidicas View Post
                        Of course they do.. The majority of Windows games on the market now are OpenGL 4.X / DirectX 11... Neither of which is supported by XP, or open source Linux at this time.. That's why most serious gamers are running Windows 7 now.... and I think Gabe is right that Windows 8 will basically be the next Vista which brings a LOT of opportunity.. The last time Vista was released, the market share of Mac OS X went through the f-ing roof.. I remember those "allow or deny" apple commercials and such making fun of just how horrible Vista was at the time...
                        Majority of games will work fine on DX9c hardware. Very few people know what DX10 or DX11 brings in terms of graphics. I actually don't know much about what this brings. Best I can figure is that DX10 brings better performance and DX11 brings tessellation. Nearly all games though have the ability to default to DX9, which works perfectly well in Windows XP. Tessellation is a rarely found feature found in modern games. Since game consoles are stuck using older hardware, most games on PC won't really go past DX9 level of graphics.

                        Though enthusiasts will go through the trouble to get Windows 7 and turn on those fancy graphic features. Those same people will also go through the trouble to install Linux, but they need good reasons. Currently the only way to run games on Linux is to do it through WINE, in which you take a heavy hit in performance. OpenGL games are rare as well.

                        Those same enthusiasts don't like Windows 8. Specifically because of the UI. They're the crowd that Ubuntu and other distros should be aiming at. If they start to migrate, they'll get their friends and family to as well. Get the right enthusiasts and you'll even get people who'll work on those graphic drivers. Back in the day a lot of people used to tweak Nvidia's and ATI's graphic drivers on Windows, and that all went down the drain after Vista. Could you imagine what those people would do with open source drivers?

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                        • #57
                          From everything I've read, id did us a favor by not giving us a port of Rage.

                          id just barely measures as a blip on the screen these days, but they get a lot of media attention because of their past history.

                          Don't worry about Doom 4. We'll have a whole new Valve game to play with by then... and it'll probably be 10x better than anything id makes, sadly.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by e8hffff View Post
                            Bad timing on their part as the Linux gaming scene is just starting to move.

                            Does anyone care about Quake franchise?
                            Yes, actually. Despite its faults, Quake 3/Quake Live is still the best competitive FPS game available. You are right in that iD don't make great single player games, but their multiplayer efforts have always been the best around. And until something better comes along, I'm going to continue playing Quake Live, and on Linux.

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                            • #59
                              I can see JC's point since they seem to have lost their lone Linux dev.

                              The problem for them is that there wasn't any good way to create a cross-distro installer (deb, rpm, tgz, sh, etc.) back when they made their Linux releases. With Steam and Desura/Desurium that will change and hopefully ID will try again. In addition, there is a payment system integrated with these distribution systems that didn't exist before. They can also offer demos (Desura/Desurium already do).

                              I've owned Id titles since CW3D and was happy to find Linux versions. I knew the problem of buying M$ media and using a Linux binary regarding stats when I mostly play offline. This is the same problem for any other developer, like Epic (UT2004). I wonder how the HiB developers keep track of their game usage by platform. They can see it in sales but for an individual game it's not as obvious unless it has an online component.

                              One problem with online multiplayer is that Linux versions of Id games are either old or not popular enough to form a stable player base. With several of their games (and multiplayer-specifc mods also) I tried many servers that were either closed or only had a few bots running around, even after the games were open sourced and had active F/OSS developers and mods. If they don't achieve critical mass then online multiplayer is rather lonely.

                              This is a problem for F/OSS games also. A few like Tremulus or Battle for Wesnoth achieved critical mass but many others haven't. Version mismatches between servers and various clients don't help because they fragment the player base even more. On Windows, a gamer just installs the latest EXE. On Linux, a gamer has to figure out how to compile it themselves or for someone to do it for them (PPA, etc.). Linux distros don't provide the same immediate satisfaction as Windows when it comes to games (same as for malware writers).

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Kano View Post
                                Basically i can understand JC, but i dont see it so negative. First of all with the right gfx card you can play Rage with wine. It does not work with Intel onboard and it did not work with fglrx and my hd 5670, but worked even with my old nv 8800 gts 512.
                                When you check this? On winehq there is reports about Catalyst 11.8 and Catalyst 12.4. According to this reports Rage have Gold status with fglrx too.
                                Originally posted by jhansonxi View Post
                                The problem for them is that there wasn't any good way to create a cross-distro installer (deb, rpm, tgz, sh, etc.) back when they made their Linux releases.
                                What stopping him from using Open Build Service?
                                Originally posted by jhansonxi View Post
                                With Steam and Desura/Desurium that will change and hopefully ID will try again.
                                They not. For example all id games not available in Steam for MacOS.

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