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  • #61
    Originally posted by 89c51 View Post
    Just out of curiosity isn't it possible to have some type of sandbox with linux for running apps you don't "trust"?? ie make it impossible for these apps to harm the kernel.
    Root, SElinux, AppArmor, all of them have Wine and Kernel restrictions. qemu wine is possible.

    Comment


    • #62
      What you are saying about Valve would then apply also to EA's Origin , BIS Store and a bunch of many other similar online services (granted,, they don't offer the same level of service than Steam).

      In the end , US and EU regulations would NEVER allow M$ pull a stunt like that just like they forced M$ to make Internet Explorer removable . period.

      As for competition of M$ Store vs Steam, well, at least in the games field, M$ already had a major failure with "Games for Windows (Live)"

      Comment


      • #63
        @89c51

        I am pretty sure you can study lots of things without needing autocad, solidworks or photoshop. Btw. for 3d modelling you can use Maya which runs on Linux (and was working 1998 or so on IRIX). If you can not live without photoshop you should try wine. google paid lots of money to support it.

        http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?appId=17

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by AJSB View Post
          In the end , US and EU regulations would NEVER allow M$ pull a stunt like that just like they forced M$ to make Internet Explorer removable . period.
          How did that work out for Netscape?

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by johnc View Post
            How did that work out for Netscape?
            Too late for Netscape but it worked just fine for Firefox (and Opera), thank you

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
              NT is still a shitty single user kernel.
              Huh? What the hell is a single user kernel? NT is clearly a multi-user system, with several different system users running at the same time.
              People always run as administrators and disable UAC cause it's annoying.
              No, they do it because they don't know what they are doing.
              Linux makes it actively hard to stay root all the time (talking ubuntu here).
              Ubuntu is not all Linux. Yes, there are some distros that make it actively harder to run as root all the time, but none of them makes it impossible. It is in fact very easy to circumvent such restrictions and many users that come from Windows actually want to do that, because they don't know what they are doing.
              Distros that assume that the user knows what he is doing don't have such restrictions at all, it is no problem to run Arch, Slackware or Gentoo as root all the time. This is not something that is magically different on Linux. The first thing that makes your system secure or insecure is the user, not the OS.
              So NT is still shit. What is that argument that it has all these nice features but they are disabled? They're userbase is still in the 90's mindset with administrator account and windows is forced to follow the stupid users.
              So now you are changing from "NT is shit" to "NT's users are shit". Why is a kernel shit because it is used by dumb users? If I run Linux as root all the time does that make Linux shit?
              This is still Microsoft's mistake for making them think that running as admin is the way to go. Nothing can save them from their shitty decisions. Luckily they posted their first loss this quarter. Goodbye and good riddance of Microsoft cancer!
              This kind of behavior is burned into the minds of the people and you will have a very hard time to change that. Let's see what happens if your wish is fulfilled, Microsoft dies and all these uninformed users come to Linux. I would like to see you giving support to these people and explaining why running the system as root is a bad idea.

              In short: The Windows security model is not bad per se, in fact it is pretty good. What is bad is the users that don't want to give up some convenience for having a secure system. But that is not the fault of the kernel.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by 89c51 View Post
                Autocad is an example. Solidworks is another. There are alternatives of course but when something is considered an "industry standard" people want it even if they don't "need" it and are directed to it. Another example is Photoshop. If you are a graphic designer and ask for a job i a company they will probably ask for photoshop illustrator etc no matter if you are a gimp or inkscape wizard.
                I use DraftSight instead of AutoCAD. It's free, cross-platform, and based on Intellicad and so is highly compatible with AutoCAD. It's developed by Dassault Systems who is the developer of SolidWorks (and Catia). As a bonus it's faster than AutoCAD and doesn't have that stupid ribbon interface that Autodesk licensed from M$.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by AJSB View Post
                  In the end , US and EU regulations would NEVER allow M$ pull a stunt like that just like they forced M$ to make Internet Explorer removable . period.
                  That is what i say without any antitrust law valve would be death instantly.
                  Now we talk about a "Kindergarten" Valve can be stay alive in the sand box at the "Kindergarten"
                  On the other side a windows app-store is a full attack with there monopole power against the steam app-store.
                  But sure maybe the US and EU regulations protect valve in the "Kindergarten".

                  Originally posted by AJSB View Post
                  As for competition of M$ Store vs Steam, well, at least in the games field, M$ already had a major failure with "Games for Windows (Live)"
                  Windows live is not the same than the windows8 app-store as a necessarily bundle with the OS.
                  But sure maybe the US and EU regulations protect valve in the "Kindergarten".

                  Originally posted by AJSB View Post
                  What you are saying about Valve would then apply also to EA's Origin , BIS Store and a bunch of many other similar online services (granted,, they don't offer the same level of service than Steam).
                  I never bought any steam-only or EA-orgin-only or similar DRM-system-only game.
                  They all offer the same level of DRM/Copy-protection anti-service.

                  The Valve-Linux investment if just the effort to escape the Microsoft-trap or in other words its the effort to escape the sand-box in the kindergarten.
                  This can only be successful with windows incompatible hardware because the hardware company's like Intel and AMD do a cross-platform-subsidization beneficial to Microsoft with a rate of 95% for every hardware you buy.

                  This means Valve can only be successful if they drop the "x86" platform this means they need to be a hardware company like apple sell "iphones"

                  My advice to Gabe is: Build a "console" based on "windows-incompatible" hardware for example MIPS systems like "Loongson" and then beat consoles like xbox and the Windows-PC in a single round.

                  If they stay inside of the x86 windows hardware platform they will lose and this is 100% for sure.
                  Last edited by maldorordiscord; 07-26-2012, 04:51 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by AJSB View Post
                    Too late for Netscape but it worked just fine for Firefox (and Opera), thank you
                    No this do not work for firefox and opera because microsoft earn money in a direct way for the IE and they earn money on ads but firefox and opera only do have a market share with that antitrust kindergarten because they give away the software for FREE and they only earn money on ads.

                    Microsoft won this battle again! because they earn money on selling IE with windows and they earn money on "ads" and they do have the biggest market share.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Its not just games that's holding Linux back, its the commercial applications as well as the likes of Quicken and QuickBooks. If the makers of major market applications can be convinced they can make money selling apps that run natively on Linux then they'd undertake the effort of porting them

                      I'm going out on a limb to also say that convincing Adobe the value of porting Photoshop and Premiere and Acrobat Pro to Linux as well, considering many companies depend on these applications

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Kano View Post
                        @89c51

                        I am pretty sure you can study lots of things without needing autocad, solidworks or photoshop. Btw. for 3d modelling you can use Maya which runs on Linux (and was working 1998 or so on IRIX). If you can not live without photoshop you should try wine. google paid lots of money to support it.

                        http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?appId=17
                        Yes you can but you don't decide what you will study based on what software runs on your computer. (at least i didn't )

                        What i mean is that certain industries use certain software and most companies have workflows based on this and demand certain knowledge. This also forces universities to follow the industry "trend".

                        This doesn't mean that you cannot do stuff with alternative software but in many cases the "industry standard" is not cross platform and you are "forced" in another platform.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by TobiSGD View Post
                          In short: The Windows security model is not bad per se, in fact it is pretty good. What is bad is the users that don't want to give up some convenience for having a secure system. But that is not the fault of the kernel.
                          well you are technically wrong in one sense in 2 points:

                          1.) winblows security barries are there i give you that but the implementation is no good and regularly hack any version of windows is a coffe cup away and well UAC/ntfs ACLS/ASLR/disable bit/TXT/etc. are mostly very bugged and are very easy to bypass, after that just hide your exploit processes and be happy for a while[i do some work as legal cracker now and then for bussiness in my country], well these days is even easier just exploit IE/MSN/.NET runtime to gain access to the kernel tho. [note this is without user intervention at all and giving the sysadmin 48 hours to pimp their security in Server/stations][on a good point windows firewall can be annoying if the admin is picky].

                          funny note after many years of cracking UAC has never asked me anything while breaking half the freaking OS but it annoys me to no end when im using actual safe stuff LOL

                          2.) Linux/BSD/Unix: here you are very wrong, these OSes are designed lot more securely from the start and they actually know quite a deal on how protect themselves so even as root is really hard to exploit/hack/virus/[put here] those kernel at least in a reasonable timeframe. Sure in linux as root you can install a keylogger or change the root/user password to mess with the guy for example but try to hide the actual process to make it invisible to the OS or try to access the memory reserved by another application to sniff a password, etc. in resume is not easy at all in fact you need to burn your braincells looking for an unknown security fail[to make it funnier in the kernel itself for the specific task you need to perform] write the exploit and pray the kernel just don't panic and bitch you out.[assuming a clean uber insecure linux here without any security measure active at all]

                          to fuck things more the linux kernel reserve memory and upload itself on ram which force you to work the exploit hot[on live ram] and the mofo really work hard to prevent you from you asm your way in plus you cannot talk directly to the hardware but you have to kindly ask the linux kernel to do it for you[unless you can DMA your way with a firewire cable jajaja but again is not easy and i think someone already posted a way to partially fixit][i won't even talk about jails or cgroups or virtualization or bypass iptables(PAAAIIINNN), etc]

                          so if you attack a machines with a relative updated system and you manage to get the root password you are still worlds of pain away from your goal and well viruses i don't think they will be too hot on linuxes[they are HUGE BLOBS and require very extremely nit picked kernel version]

                          now i agree user is another security flaw but unixes kernel are rough enough to hold just fine the integrity of the OS, now like i said trivial stuff like attaking evolution mail client or getting your bookmarks from firefox or putting some annoying keylogger is doable but those are userspace apps and pose no threat to the kernel[unless a major security flaw is found but moslty those lives for hours]

                          sure both can be compromised but is like say "i keep my money in a shoebox with a key cuz well vaults can be opened too" <-- that is true but the amount of time/ resources / knowledge / thief are not equal at all, any idiot with a knife can take your shoebox and get you money but you need higly trained[prolly military training]/heavily armed with very expensive tools to break a bank vault hence why the 500 most powerful supercomputer in the world use linux and not windows[windows can be clustered too and after paying millions of dollars in hardware you won't go cheapo on windows for a license, is the security and tools that make the difference since this computers moslty handle extremely sensitive data][ok some are for reaserch and stuff so i mean financial/military/weaponry sectors, happy?]

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by asdx
                            Please guys answer me 1 question:

                            Will Gabe/Valve help us with the S3TC patent issues? I've recall he would help solve this problem?

                            Yes or no?
                            answer: Yes (if possible)

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by jrch2k8 View Post
                              well you are technically wrong in one sense in 2 points:

                              1.) winblows security barries are there i give you that but the implementation is no good and regularly hack any version of windows is a coffe cup away and well UAC/ntfs ACLS/ASLR/disable bit/TXT/etc. are mostly very bugged and are very easy to bypass, after that just hide your exploit processes and be happy for a while[i do some work as legal cracker now and then for bussiness in my country], well these days is even easier just exploit IE/MSN/.NET runtime to gain access to the kernel tho. [note this is without user intervention at all and giving the sysadmin 48 hours to pimp their security in Server/stations][on a good point windows firewall can be annoying if the admin is picky].

                              funny note after many years of cracking UAC has never asked me anything while breaking half the freaking OS but it annoys me to no end when im using actual safe stuff LOL

                              2.) Linux/BSD/Unix: here you are very wrong, these OSes are designed lot more securely from the start and they actually know quite a deal on how protect themselves so even as root is really hard to exploit/hack/virus/[put here] those kernel at least in a reasonable timeframe. Sure in linux as root you can install a keylogger or change the root/user password to mess with the guy for example but try to hide the actual process to make it invisible to the OS or try to access the memory reserved by another application to sniff a password, etc. in resume is not easy at all in fact you need to burn your braincells looking for an unknown security fail[to make it funnier in the kernel itself for the specific task you need to perform] write the exploit and pray the kernel just don't panic and bitch you out.[assuming a clean uber insecure linux here without any security measure active at all]

                              to fuck things more the linux kernel reserve memory and upload itself on ram which force you to work the exploit hot[on live ram] and the mofo really work hard to prevent you from you asm your way in plus you cannot talk directly to the hardware but you have to kindly ask the linux kernel to do it for you[unless you can DMA your way with a firewire cable jajaja but again is not easy and i think someone already posted a way to partially fixit][i won't even talk about jails or cgroups or virtualization or bypass iptables(PAAAIIINNN), etc]

                              so if you attack a machines with a relative updated system and you manage to get the root password you are still worlds of pain away from your goal and well viruses i don't think they will be too hot on linuxes[they are HUGE BLOBS and require very extremely nit picked kernel version]

                              now i agree user is another security flaw but unixes kernel are rough enough to hold just fine the integrity of the OS, now like i said trivial stuff like attaking evolution mail client or getting your bookmarks from firefox or putting some annoying keylogger is doable but those are userspace apps and pose no threat to the kernel[unless a major security flaw is found but moslty those lives for hours]

                              sure both can be compromised but is like say "i keep my money in a shoebox with a key cuz well vaults can be opened too" <-- that is true but the amount of time/ resources / knowledge / thief are not equal at all, any idiot with a knife can take your shoebox and get you money but you need higly trained[prolly military training]/heavily armed with very expensive tools to break a bank vault hence why the 500 most powerful supercomputer in the world use linux and not windows[windows can be clustered too and after paying millions of dollars in hardware you won't go cheapo on windows for a license, is the security and tools that make the difference since this computers moslty handle extremely sensitive data][ok some are for reaserch and stuff so i mean financial/military/weaponry sectors, happy?]
                              Personal Linux experiment: I cant run a keylogger on userspace.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Try this:

                                http://average-coder.blogspot.de/201...keylogger.html

                                Seems to use only LD_PRELOAD.
                                Last edited by Kano; 07-26-2012, 08:19 PM.

                                Comment

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