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Valve's Gabe Newell Really Hates Windows 8

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  • #31
    Well, I don't know about the general public, but in my circles - everyone, really. But then again, I studied chemistry, and work with engineers. But I would say that a large majority of technical jobs (everything excluding software development, really - whether it's chemical industry, energy industry, pharma, automobile industry, agriculture ...) requires some specific proprietary software, which costs a lot of money, and can't be "just swapped out".

    Or take SCADA - most of them are windows based. That's not likely to change anytime soon.

    Edit: Kano, we're talking about desktops here, aren't we...

    Now okay, I concede the point that at the high-school level, rarely does anyone need anything past an office suite, a web browser and maybe a good IDE. But the moment you go to uni and start studying anything at the school of science or the school of engineering (not school of maths/computing), you will see that there is a lot of stuff which tends to work much better under windows...
    Last edited by PeterKraus; 07-26-2012, 07:34 AM.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by PeterKraus View Post
      Well, I don't know about the general public, but in my circles - everyone, really. But then again, I studied chemistry, and work with engineers. But I would say that a large majority of technical jobs (everything excluding software development, really - whether it's chemical industry, energy industry, pharma, automobile industry, agriculture ...) requires some specific proprietary software, which costs a lot of money, and can't be "just swapped out".

      Or take SCADA - most of them are windows based. That's not likely to change anytime soon.

      Edit: Kano, we're talking about desktops here, aren't we...

      Now okay, I concede the point that at the high-school level, rarely does anyone need anything past an office suite, a web browser and maybe a good IDE. But the moment you go to uni and start studying anything at the school of science or the school of engineering (not school of maths/computing), you will see that there is a lot of stuff which tends to work much better under windows...
      There are engineering/simulation etc tools for linux (Siemens NX, Matlab, Labview etc) but they tend to work somehow better and be better supported on Win sadly.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by kraftman View Post
        It just proves Windows lives, because of games. Dot. The biggest Linux issue is the lack of them. Dot. There are many issues in Windows which make it sometimes unusable, but games are saving. Dot.
        How ridiculous. I rather not enumerate, but there exists a multitude of reasons as to why Windows is preferred over Linux in certain scenarios. It doesn't mean that the idea for Windows-only developmental interest should be held; however, you're fooling yourself if you think the userbase size and compatability is the only thing keeping it "alive."

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        • #34
          Originally posted by 89c51 View Post
          I don't think that there is something as bad as the situation with CAD software when it comes to linux.
          Didn't we had this discussion before? There are native CAD solutions for linux which are 99,9% compatible with the Autodesk solution. Not open-source nor free, but native nonetheless. It's not a problem anymore, unless you're talking about BIM type of programs like Revit. Anyway, 2D drafting is perfectly possible to do with the available (commercial) solutions for linux.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by maldorordiscord View Post
            Its more than simple: The windows app store makes steam obsolete and this makes valve obsolete and this makes gabe obsolete.
            Now Gabe realize that fact that he is obsolete and his company goes bankrupt next year now he try to fix that.
            10 years ago there was no windows app store and gabe and valve don't give a fuck about Linux this means the only fact what force him to love linux is the windows app store.

            Its more than simple he loves Linux now because its the only way out of the Microsoft trap!

            Microsoft burned all thinks they have ever touched!
            How does the App store make steam obsolete? Steam is on MacOS despite apple's app store.]

            Steam is a lot more than just a shop. It's a DRM system, a friends and community network, and a match making service. And compared to Games for Windows Live, it's match making service is 200% better.

            Infact, compared to the alternatives, Steam is what many users prefer. I don't want to be fluffing around with Games for Windows Live for 2 hours. I just want to play my game with my friends. Steamworks does that.

            Case in point. In Dead Rising 2, My girlfriend and I spent half an hour trying to get us both into the same game together. Only to get disconnected after 5 minutes.

            We both play Payday and Left for Dead 2 and can instantly get into eachother's games without drama.

            Microsoft is never and will never be a threat to Valve :P.
            Last edited by Bomyne; 07-26-2012, 08:08 AM.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by entropy View Post
              *If* Linux goes mainstream, there will be viruses. Probably plenty of them.
              Not even considering compromised repositories and the like.
              Thinking of Linux as an inherently secure system is, at least, dangerous.
              It's not.
              OSX is mainstream

              Is it REALLY that different from linux???

              WHERE OH WHERE ARE the "plenty" of OSX viruses?

              "Linux as an inherently secure system is, at least, dangerous."

              CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR NEW DICTIONARY!!!! NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING IS "INHERENTLY" SECURE!!!

              Between lies and self-fulfilling statements you didn't say ANYTHING AT ALL!

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              • #37
                Originally posted by frantaylor View Post
                OSX is mainstream

                Is it REALLY that different from linux???

                WHERE OH WHERE ARE the "plenty" of OSX viruses?

                "Linux as an inherently secure system is, at least, dangerous."

                CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR NEW DICTIONARY!!!! NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING IS "INHERENTLY" SECURE!!!

                Between lies and self-fulfilling statements you didn't say ANYTHING AT ALL!
                Quoted for truth.

                It's a lot harder to infect a linux system due to how the permissions work. If my linux laptop gets a virus, it has to survive first the virus scanner I have installed, but then it's trapped. my major bineraries and config files are only writable by root... and I don't run as root. So to get rid of the virus, all i have to do is delete my user account.

                In Windows, you have to format every drive windows has touched. Painful.

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                • #38
                  Windows 8 is a train wreck and the Windows Marketplace is no threat to Steam at all. Basicly, Steam = PC gaming scene today.

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                  • #39
                    Anybody who thinks that games have ANY relevance with respect to platform selection, they are completely out to lunch.

                    Platform selection is a result of precisely TWO factors;
                    1) That which is pre-installed when non-techie newb goes to walmart and buys a computer. These people buy lots of computers (and even buy a new one when the old one gets crammed full of virus), and have NO CONCEPT of what an operating system is. They plug it in and use it as an appliance -- much like a TV or FRIDGE.
                    2) Those BUSINESS users who depend on certain specific software that is only available for balmerOS.

                    There have been a few "experiments" in providing linux as the pre-installed operating system, in particular, early NETBOOKS. This, however, was a TOTAL DISASTER, since the linux supplied was DELIBERATELY CRIPPLED... i.e., same non-techie newb buys netbook, can't actually *do* anything with it -- no word processor, crippled web browser, can't configure printer, etc. It was basically a worthless heap, so lots of these got returned rather than non-techie newb downloading and installing a REAL GNU/Linux distro on it (which would work amazingly well on that hardware).

                    To solve the platform selection problem, you need to fix BOTH of those problems. You need OEM's to pre-install GNU/Linux, and you need business software developers to build their packages for GNU/Linux. Unfortunately, the hardware OEM's don't have much incentive to ship from factory like this, since balmer PAYS them to NOT install anything besides balmerOS. Specifically, if you do, they charge you 10 times as much per license. This is an obviously unfair practice that should not be tolerated.

                    As for #2.... if you fix #1 and create a DEMAND for business software under Linux, the market will automatically solve #2.


                    What I envision in a FAIR market where balmer isn't allowed to make anti-competitive deals with hardware vendors, is that for every computer, you have the choice of having it shipped with some Linux pre-installed, or PAY AN EXTRA $150-$500 for balmerOS.... this is what the options WOULD BE in a fair and competitive market. That same non-techie newb will take a look at the price tag, scratch their head for a minute, take a look at the list of free software the two come with pre-installed, realize that the CHEAPER one DOES MORE, then choose to save the money.


                    Games??? Who cares? Maybe 0.0001% of the market is really into gaming, and of those, 90%+ will be building custom anyway. Casual gamers will be totally happy with the HUNDREDS of free games that ship with most major GNU/Linux distros.

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                    • #40
                      I think the majority of people in this thread seem to forget that Valve are a multi-billion company that has a large amount of influence.

                      And as Gabe said, OEMs are going to stop providing Windows consumer machines (I'd say HP and Dell for sure).

                      Linux for gaming means you can give gamers what they really want, a PC running an OS designed top-to-bottom for games (SteamOS?)

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by frantaylor View Post
                        OSX is mainstream

                        Is it REALLY that different from linux???

                        WHERE OH WHERE ARE the "plenty" of OSX viruses?

                        "Linux as an inherently secure system is, at least, dangerous."

                        CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR NEW DICTIONARY!!!! NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING IS "INHERENTLY" SECURE!!!

                        Between lies and self-fulfilling statements you didn't say ANYTHING AT ALL!
                        Intrinsic, ingrained, etc. Sure, "Inherently" is a perfectly good way to describe Linux security.
                        Especially when you're comparing it against balmerOS security.

                        The difference is this;
                        balmerOS originated as a SINGLE USER LIGHT WEIGHT operating system, designed for "PC's". It was originally called "DOS", and was low security because it was never expected that it would interact with networks or anything potentially hostile, PLUS, the physical limitations of an Intel 8086 with 640 kB RAM (or less...) really limited how far you could go with security. As the hardware advanced, they added more and more layers of glitter on top of DOS, but needed to maintain backwards compatibility through every step, hence they never really got away from the "single user mode" that was the main reason why their software was so easily compromised. Security on balmerOS is basically a practice in smoke and mirrors -- get an industrial fan and a rock, and it all goes away.

                        Linux is totally different though. It is INHERENTLY secure. It was based on UNIX, the old time NETWORK operating system that predates DOS. UNIX, and hence LINUX, are designed from the ground up to interact with networks and hostile adversaries. The security in it is at the very foundation. Linux is much NEWER than DOS, and therefore the PC hardware it was intended to run on, was much further advanced at the time, and capable of handling a system DESIGNED for security. Compared to balmer's smoke and mirrors, Linux is a maximum security prison with layered walls of concrete, barbed wire, guard towers, machine guns, bright lights, and sirens. That doesn't mean that it is INVULNERABLE, but that it is INHERENTLY [as in designed from the ground up to be] SECURE.

                        BTW: How exactly do you define "mainstream" that makes OSX more so than Linux?
                        Linux is running on FAR FAR FAR more devices than OSX.

                        Even GNU/Linux is probably on more devices than OSX. According to STEVE BALMER, the PC USER market share for OSX and Linux are about equal. You can look that up yourself if you're worried about the accuracy. Whether that is true or not is anyone's guess.
                        ** and it doesn't count SMARTPHONES, APPLICANCES (like routers), or SERVERS.

                        If OSX is "mainstream", than Linux is EVEN MORE "mainstream".
                        Last edited by droidhacker; 07-26-2012, 10:32 AM.

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                        • #42
                          SteamOS (funny, it can be abreviated to ....SOS !!!)....hummmm....i actually like the name...wonder if sooner or later we will see a distro from Valve called something like that ?!?


                          As for hardware vendors be victims of M$ unfair tactics , it's amazing that no one in US or EU does something against those tactics....
                          ....and FWIW, FYI, i made my own rig from ground up so i didn't had have to pay for a M$ OS.

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                          • #43
                            1.Linux security has nothing to do with OS-X and Windows. Linux security comes from Libre-Source. When you can look the source you are secure, when you can manipulate the source (repository) you are secure, when you have access to all knowledge (Policy-Tools, App-Armor) you are secure, and more. For example If you execute a Virus with Wine you probably wont be harmed because of the system policy (Root, SElinux, others), how you will force policy on Closed-Software for example? 2.Linux is better on everything against OS-X and Windows but doesn't have many games. As Nvidia abandons D3D and their next Voxel-Raytracing engine (see ID-tech6), and as Wine gets better on D3D to OGL translations, Windows will lose in less than 2 years. You cant produce Raytracing or Voxel for D3D and keep in parallel all the rights for your "property", because D3D its closed!!! 3.The only real thing thats missing its hardware emulation. We cant run a x86 program on arm for example because its slow. The only way to accelerate its a subset of emulation instructions inside a CPU (Godson), or an external emulation accelerator like ZMS cores fixed for this job. Also we have better production programs but we don't have material for them. For example, all the samples of open-sound platform are unusable because are just Waves and not hight quality machine like SF2. Also there is not even a good preset available, for example all the guitar presets of Rakarrack are ?_F_?.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by droidhacker View Post
                              Linux is totally different though. It is INHERENTLY secure. It was based on UNIX, the old time NETWORK operating system that predates DOS. UNIX, and hence LINUX, are designed from the ground up to interact with networks and hostile adversaries. The security in it is at the very foundation. Linux is much NEWER than DOS, and therefore the PC hardware it was intended to run on, was much further advanced at the time, and capable of handling a system DESIGNED for security. Compared to balmer's smoke and mirrors, Linux is a maximum security prison with layered walls of concrete, barbed wire, guard towers, machine guns, bright lights, and sirens. That doesn't mean that it is INVULNERABLE, but that it is INHERENTLY [as in designed from the ground up to be] SECURE.
                              But all you need to do is trick a dumb (read: average) user into granting administrator privileges and you're screwed on Linux too.

                              It really wouldn't be hard to knock out an average user's Linux system, since escalating privileges is such a common user action.

                              And now with Ubuntu 12.04 you don't even need to grant administrator privileges to update already-installed software. If a PPA could be compromised, you could screw every user out there.

                              Look what was possible with a previous version of GNOME (and it really wasn't a "bug" per se): http://youtu.be/9HxFGQ8OpYw

                              Get a bunch of non-sophisticated users on Linux and it wouldn't be much better than Windows.

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                              • #45
                                Security problems on Linux are fast fixed. At lest its better from an OS that sends your personal data to FBI. Also this faults you said like Repository are next to impossible.

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