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  • #61
    Originally posted by Kivada View Post
    Take Psychonauts in the current bundle, I bought it when it orriginally came out for $35. Why should I pay again for a game that I already own just because I'm getting the ability to play it on a different platform? The game itself is identical, there is no new content in the Linux version.
    You shouldn't have to. Which means you can slide that number down to $0 if you wish.

    But if you're going to play any of the other games, you should at least offer some kind of money IMO.

    It's a lot of hard work making games like that. If people aren't going to be rewarded for their work, they just won't do it... and the talent will be lost.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Kivada View Post
      uh huh...

      So, DRM didn't exist before the HIB apprently?
      Apparently you didn't exist before the HIB?

      I see the money going to the EFF to fight shit like SOPA, PIPA, ACTA, UEFI locked bootloaders, etc is a far better use of that money.
      Which is exactly why they accept direct donations.

      Take Psychonauts in the current bundle, I bought it when it orriginally came out for $35. Why should I pay again for a game that I already own just because I'm getting the ability to play it on a different platform? The game itself is identical, there is no new content in the Linux version.
      I don't take any issue with format swapping. But is that the only one you are playing for free? It certainly didn't sound like it before.

      Edit:
      I dislike proprietary software as much as the next guy, but if you think it's ok to violate their copyrights, you are also arguing that it would be fine for them to violate the GPL. There's no difference. In that direction, lies the Chinese system, where manufacturers violate the GPL constantly, just like they all pirate Windows and other software.
      Last edited by smitty3268; 06-18-2012, 11:48 PM.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by johnc View Post
        But if you're going to play any of the other games, you should at least offer some kind of money IMO.

        It's a lot of hard work making games like that. If people aren't going to be rewarded for their work, they just won't do it... and the talent will be lost.
        Originally posted by smitty3268 View Post
        Apparently you didn't exist before the HIB?


        Which is exactly why they accept direct donations.



        I don't take any issue with format swapping. But is that the only one you are playing for free? It certainly didn't sound like it before.

        Edit:
        I dislike proprietary software as much as the next guy, but if you think it's ok to violate their copyrights, you are also arguing that it would be fine for them to violate the GPL. There's no difference. In that direction, lies the Chinese system, where manufacturers violate the GPL constantly, just like they all pirate Windows and other software.
        I don't think I'm alone in using the HIBs as a reminder to donate money to the EFF, and so what if I slash the payouts to the developers and usually don't give the HIB team a cut? as before, I'm not violating anyone's copyright as these companies agreed to these terms, they are merely holding a charity benefit, they are using their games to promote charities and to gauge their future success in the market by using the HIB as an adverting launchpad to reach many more people then they normally would. But we as charitable donators don't have to actually give the developers anything as the organization is fine with receiving $0.01 dollars per downloader.

        Besides, it's only the stupid companies that are actual using the HIB to LAUNCH a new game, they needed to launch via Desura, Gamolith and Steam, wait a year to see how sales go then use the HIB to get a final boost in sales and keep their name out there as well as raise excess capital for their next game.

        So yeah, I'm perfectly fine with giving all of the $20-50 I spend on HIBs that aren't a stupid money grab of previously released games to the EFF. And maybe it's for political reasons I don't want the EFF showing up in my credit card statement, I may be paranoid, but the US government is trying really hard to use Orwellian novels as a governance manual...

        [EDIT]
        And nowhere did I say anything about propritary software, sure I don't perfer it, but I don't mind it for a game, I'm only wholly against it being pert of the driver stack, hence why I don't use the blob drivers.
        Last edited by Kivada; 06-19-2012, 01:30 AM.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Kivada View Post
          I don't think I'm alone in using the HIBs as a reminder to donate money to the EFF, and so what if I slash the payouts to the developers and usually don't give the HIB team a cut? as before, I'm not violating anyone's copyright as these companies agreed to these terms, they are merely holding a charity benefit, they are using their games to promote charities and to gauge their future success in the market by using the HIB as an adverting launchpad to reach many more people then they normally would. But we as charitable donators don't have to actually give the developers anything as the organization is fine with receiving $0.01 dollars per downloader.

          Besides, it's only the stupid companies that are actual using the HIB to LAUNCH a new game, they needed to launch via Desura, Gamolith and Steam, wait a year to see how sales go then use the HIB to get a final boost in sales and keep their name out there as well as raise excess capital for their next game.

          So yeah, I'm perfectly fine with giving all of the $20-50 I spend on HIBs that aren't a stupid money grab of previously released games to the EFF. And maybe it's for political reasons I don't want the EFF showing up in my credit card statement, I may be paranoid, but the US government is trying really hard to use Orwellian novels as a governance manual...
          Cool.

          Then you'll be consistent and not play the games you didn't pay for. Nothing wrong with that.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by johnc View Post
            Cool.

            Then you'll be consistent and not play the games you didn't pay for. Nothing wrong with that.
            Nope, I don't subscribe to your holier then thou morality. I paid into the charity of my choosing that they where promoting, any money given to the developers is a tip for their participation in this charity fund drive and nothing more.

            It's people like yourself that stupidly think the HIB is actually a business model instead of what it is: Games being used as an incentive for you to donate to charity.
            Last edited by Kivada; 06-19-2012, 01:44 AM.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Kivada View Post
              I don't think I'm alone in using the HIBs as a reminder to donate money to the EFF, and so what if I slash the payouts to the developers and usually don't give the HIB team a cut? as before, I'm not violating anyone's copyright as these companies agreed to these terms, they are merely holding a charity benefit, they are using their games to promote charities and to gauge their future success in the market by using the HIB as an adverting launchpad to reach many more people then they normally would. But we as charitable donators don't have to actually give the developers anything as the organization is fine with receiving $0.01 dollars per downloader.

              Besides, it's only the stupid companies that are actual using the HIB to LAUNCH a new game, they needed to launch via Desura, Gamolith and Steam, wait a year to see how sales go then use the HIB to get a final boost in sales and keep their name out there as well as raise excess capital for their next game.

              So yeah, I'm perfectly fine with giving all of the $20-50 I spend on HIBs that aren't a stupid money grab of previously released games to the EFF. And maybe it's for political reasons I don't want the EFF showing up in my credit card statement, I may be paranoid, but the US government is trying really hard to use Orwellian novels as a governance manual...

              [EDIT]
              And nowhere did I say anything about propritary software, sure I don't perfer it, but I don't mind it for a game, I'm only wholly against it being pert of the driver stack, hence why I don't use the blob drivers.
              I didn't realize i had switched from talking from uid over to you.

              uid has been all over these forums talking about how he doesn't pay for any proprietary software and just downloads it for free.

              I wasn't even particularly discussing the hib in regards to him, that was just the current topic in this thread.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Hamish Wilson View Post
                I actually have to agree. This is not really making that much of a protest otherwise.
                Yes it is, because I am voting with my wallet.
                I give money to open source software developers while refusing to pay proprietary software developers.

                Originally posted by smitty3268 View Post
                People like you are why DRM is infesting this planet...
                How so?
                HIB allows me to give 0% to HIB and 0% to developers, and 100% to charity.
                If they didn't like this, they would have prevented this. I am allowed to.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Comparatively high profile games in this one.

                  However, I freaked out when I found out Bastion and Sword&Sorcery used mono.
                  Why would I want a technology that's a derivative of a framework from a company that still has to prove they are willing to compete on equal terms instead of waving around bogus patents?
                  What's wrong with SDL?

                  Between that and the WINE bottle... I chose Linux because I wanted as little to do with microsoft as possible, what's so hard to understand?

                  Worst of all is that pointing out that kind of stuff gets you "darn whiners, be happy you get games". And still having microsoft control what I can play on an OS they want gone? Screw that!

                  I'm thankful to developers considering my platform, but seriously guys, that doesn't help me in the long run if you're only focusing on your immediate convenience.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by PsynoKhi0 View Post
                    However, I freaked out when I found out Bastion and Sword&Sorcery used mono.
                    S&S does not use Mono.

                    Why would I want a technology that's a derivative of a framework from a company that still has to prove they are willing to compete on equal terms instead of waving around bogus patents?
                    What's wrong with SDL?
                    Bastion was written originally as an Xbox Live Arcade title. They didn't rewrite it from scratch for different platforms, they stuck with the existing code & fixed up the middleware to handle it.

                    Between that and the WINE bottle... I chose Linux because I wanted as little to do with microsoft as possible, what's so hard to understand?
                    Most people don't use Linux because they're on a crusade, they use it because it's better?

                    Worst of all is that pointing out that kind of stuff gets you "darn whiners, be happy you get games". And still having microsoft control what I can play on an OS they want gone? Screw that!
                    How, precisely, are Microsoft controlling your ability to play Bastion?

                    I'm thankful to developers considering my platform, but seriously guys, that doesn't help me in the long run if you're only focusing on your immediate convenience.
                    So you'd have done a from-scratch rewrite of Bastion to a platform that you find more tasteful, in the same time or less as the minimal patching of MonoGame to allow it to work on OSX and Linux?

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by directhex View Post
                      S&S does not use Mono.
                      Aww wtf I got references on that yesterday. Well that'll teach me, only sticking to google's summary.

                      Originally posted by directhex View Post
                      Bastion was written originally as an Xbox Live Arcade title. They didn't rewrite it from scratch for different platforms, they stuck with the existing code & fixed up the middleware to handle it.
                      Yes, and that's still my point. They could go crossplatform from the beginning, with no strings attached. That's what I want to see and wonder why the use of SDL isn't more widespread, from a technical standpoint.

                      Originally posted by directhex View Post
                      Most people don't use Linux because they're on a crusade, they use it because it's better?
                      Which still doesn't mean microsoft should have any say in Linux-related matters?

                      Originally posted by directhex View Post
                      How, precisely, are Microsoft controlling your ability to play Bastion?
                      Not Bastion here and now, stuff ported from xna tomorrow. Leaving the patent can of worms aside, mono stuff has to follow whatever microsoft release first on the c#/.net/xna front, correct? I mean, it's on the front page of the monogame site: "allowing xna developers to port to other platforms". That screams second class citizen to me. I'd love to get facts on how mono is immune to Embrace, Extend, Extinguish though (I really do).

                      Originally posted by directhex View Post
                      So you'd have done a from-scratch rewrite of Bastion to a platform that you find more tasteful, in the same time or less as the minimal patching of MonoGame to allow it to work on OSX and Linux?
                      No, I'd have skipped a framework tied to a single for-profit company with a long history of being barely legal jackasses all together, right from the beginning.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by PsynoKhi0 View Post
                        No, I'd have skipped a framework tied to a single for-profit company with a long history of being barely legal jackasses all together, right from the beginning.
                        Which is probably why you are posting on a Phoronix message board rather than creating award winning games.

                        The Bastion devs don't care about linux. Or Windows. Or any thing related. They just wanted to make a cool game, and picked out what they viewed as the best possible way of doing so given their economic situation.

                        I, for one, am glad that we have the ability to play these games on linux. If people don't want to play them because they use mono, well, that's fine too. Just don't play them.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by PsynoKhi0 View Post
                          Aww wtf I got references on that yesterday. Well that'll teach me, only sticking to google's summary.
                          There are three Mono-based Humble Bundle games:
                          • Bastion
                          • Spacechem
                          • Atom Zombie Smasher

                          Yes, and that's still my point. They could go crossplatform from the beginning, with no strings attached. That's what I want to see and wonder why the use of SDL isn't more widespread, from a technical standpoint.
                          They *did* go crossplatform. Using Mono means the game works on Windows, Mac, Linux, and mobiles.

                          And they *did* use SDL. MonoGame, the framework they used, uses Tao.SDL, a binding to SDL, on non-Windows platforms, as a back-end.

                          If they had gone for "only" C and SDL, which is pretty obviously what you're calling for, then they would not have been able to sell hundreds of thousands of copies on the Xbox, because SDL isn't an option to Xbox developers.

                          Which still doesn't mean microsoft should have any say in Linux-related matters?
                          Who said they have a say? They didn't publish Bastion, Warner Brothers did.

                          Not Bastion here and now, stuff ported from xna tomorrow. Leaving the patent can of worms aside, mono stuff has to follow whatever microsoft release first on the c#/.net/xna front, correct? I mean, it's on the front page of the monogame site: "allowing xna developers to port to other platforms". That screams second class citizen to me.
                          There are a whole bunch of XNA developers in the wild already. MonoGame's first priority is to enable those developers to go from being "Windows and WP7 and Xbox 360" developers to being "Windows and WP7 and Xbox 360 and Mac and iOS and Linux and Android and PS3" devs. It's perfectly possible to write new games directly for Linux with MonoGame, which is why I've submitted a package for it to Debian - so people can build cross-platform game code really easily and target a whole bunch of platforms.

                          I'd love to get facts on how mono is immune to Embrace, Extend, Extinguish though (I really do).
                          It's not. Mono has been embracing & extending .NET for years, which is why it's ended up overtaking .NET in many areas. For example, MonoGame is the only way to publish an XNA game for the Windows 8 app store - Microsoft XNA games cannot be sold via the app store because they do not integrate with the Metro UI, but MonoGame developers do not have this restriction, because MonoGame is Free Software and Free Software can do whatever the hell its developers want it to. Even Microsoft used Mono-based Unity3D to make iPad and Android ports of one of its games.

                          No, I'd have skipped a framework tied to a single for-profit company with a long history of being barely legal jackasses all together, right from the beginning.
                          And skipped the possibility of selling your game to 70 million Xbox owners, presumably?

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by smitty3268 View Post
                            Which is probably why you are posting on a Phoronix message board rather than creating award winning games.
                            Erm... Nothing to do with anything but nice try. Bastion won awards for its style of storytelling among things, that's creative talent, something complete separate from the framework the game used. Stay focused on the discussion at hand, will you?

                            Originally posted by smitty3268 View Post
                            The Bastion devs don't care about linux. Or Windows. Or any thing related. They just wanted to make a cool game, and picked out what they viewed as the best possible way of doing so given their economic situation.

                            I, for one, am glad that we have the ability to play these games on linux. If people don't want to play them because they use mono, well, that's fine too. Just don't play them.
                            Which is exactly the perfect example of what I find way too short-sighted.
                            The point with my post is to raise the question of whether it's the way to go or not, if that's sustainable in the long run.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by directhex View Post
                              There are three Mono-based Humble Bundle games:
                              • Bastion
                              • Spacechem
                              • Atom Zombie Smasher
                              I knew about the two latter ones, I was darn sure I had seen found references about S&S using monogame.

                              Originally posted by directhex View Post
                              They *did* go crossplatform. Using Mono means the game works on Windows, Mac, Linux, and mobiles.
                              Notice the "no strings attached" in the same sentence.

                              Originally posted by directhex View Post
                              And they *did* use SDL. MonoGame, the framework they used, uses Tao.SDL, a binding to SDL, on non-Windows platforms, as a back-end.

                              If they had gone for "only" C and SDL, which is pretty obviously what you're calling for, then they would not have been able to sell hundreds of thousands of copies on the Xbox, because SDL isn't an option to Xbox developers.
                              [...]
                              And skipped the possibility of selling your game to 70 million Xbox owners, presumably?
                              Which would have left them with "only" pretty much everything else?

                              Originally posted by directhex View Post
                              Who said they have a say? They didn't publish Bastion, Warner Brothers did.
                              Aww come on, stop picking out single sentences and putting them out of context of the whole post...
                              Their say in what direction c#-related technology takes, controlling the pace of development, breaking compatibility, pick your poison...

                              Originally posted by directhex View Post
                              There are a whole bunch of XNA developers in the wild already. MonoGame's first priority is to enable those developers to go from being "Windows and WP7 and Xbox 360" developers to being "Windows and WP7 and Xbox 360 and Mac and iOS and Linux and Android and PS3" devs. It's perfectly possible to write new games directly for Linux with MonoGame, which is why I've submitted a package for it to Debian - so people can build cross-platform game code really easily and target a whole bunch of platforms.
                              Again... Why not pure SDL from the start? And again, what technical advantages does xna have over SDL? I mean, choice and competition is good and all, but the new kids better bring something better to the table. "Personal convenience at the expense of long-term sustainability" doesn't count.
                              Also, I see you have personal interests in the matter, could a more objective approach chime in?

                              Originally posted by directhex View Post
                              It's not. Mono has been embracing & extending .NET for years, which is why it's ended up overtaking .NET in many areas. For example, MonoGame is the only way to publish an XNA game for the Windows 8 app store - Microsoft XNA games cannot be sold via the app store because they do not integrate with the Metro UI, but MonoGame developers do not have this restriction, because MonoGame is Free Software and Free Software can do whatever the hell its developers want it to. Even Microsoft used Mono-based Unity3D to make iPad and Android ports of one of its games.
                              Free software... Erm, quite a mess there though http://www.mono-project.com/FAQ:_Licensing. And not everything is free.
                              Point taken on mono passing .net... Maybe? I found a handul of copy-paste press releases claiming that, that's pretty much it, though no I never got past the 2nd page of search results. Also this page lists what's left to do on mono vs .net, so it's at least lacking in some areas.
                              We'll see how relevant the win8 app store integration, while technically nice, is in the marketplace soon enough.
                              And about microsoft using mono, that's cool and all though it's still their technology, they have nothing to worry about patents and such.

                              To make things clear here, I see microsoft as an arrogant company hellbent on controlling the computer industry from top to bottom, through more or less obvious means. And they have very shifting positions towards open source. So I'm very skeptical about things like mono. (And before anyone tries WINE is a completely different beast, since they have no ties with microsoft, and while I do use WINE it's a last resort)

                              But hey, here's your chance to persuade me it's all in my head. Good luck...
                              Last edited by PsynoKhi0; 06-20-2012, 06:02 AM. Reason: Typos

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by PsynoKhi0 View Post
                                I knew about the two latter ones, I was darn sure I had seen found references about S&S using monogame.
                                Nope. OpenGL, SDL, Fmod, Lua.

                                Notice the "no strings attached" in the same sentence.
                                Developers pick their platforms fully aware of the platform's requirements and limitations. There are no strings for the developers that they didn't start off seeing.

                                Which would have left them with "only" pretty much everything else?
                                If it costs a million dollars to develop a game using an off-the-shelf engine, or two million to write your own engine, plus a hundred thousand per extra platform to port to, which are you going to pick? Especially on a limited starting budget.

                                Aww come on, stop picking out single sentences and putting them out of context of the whole post...
                                Their say in what direction c#-related technology takes, controlling the pace of development, breaking compatibility, pick your poison...
                                That "say" doesn't affect anything already produced, though. They can't break Mono's ability to run .NET 2.0 or 4.0 apps without breaking .NET's ability to run .NET 2.0 or 4.0 apps - and given .NET is an ECMA published spec from a dozen companies besides Microsoft, I really don't think the impending doom scenario is realistic.

                                Are new libraries produced which Mono often doesn't implement? Yes. WPF isn't implemented, for example.

                                Are new language or runtime abilities produced which Mono often doesn't implement? Actually, no - Mono implements new .NET features before .NET does. One of the main features of .NET 5.0 has been in Mono for years, and that's long been the way things go.

                                Not to mention Mono-only advantages, e.g. the Mono.Simd library allowing hardware accelerated datatypes when executing on Mono (and unaccelerated on .NET)

                                Again... Why not pure SDL from the start? And again, what technical advantages does xna have over SDL? I mean, choice and competition is good and all, but the new kids better bring something better to the table. "Personal convenience at the expense of long-term sustainability" doesn't count.
                                Also, I see you have personal interests in the matter, could a more objective approach chime in?
                                Development in garbage collected languages is faster and less buggy than in manually memory managed languages like C. By leveraging middleware, you can receive pre-solved problems that otherwise every game needs to implement from scratch every time. Could Bastion be written in C and SDL only? Sure. But it'd be far less productive than using a framework to abstract away the busywork - and for an indie developer, time is literally money.

                                Typically, a game ends up being written with two main engines - a graphics engine (almost always in C) and a logic engine (almost always something nicer like Lua, which designers can use, as well as developers). Mono's an increasingly popular choice for the latter, with Unity3D, The Sims 3, and various indie titles like those already mentioned, using it to develop games faster, with far more expressive logic engines than would be allowed by using something home-grown or low-performance.

                                Free software... Erm, quite a mess there though http://www.mono-project.com/FAQ:_Licensing.
                                It's really not as complicated as people make out. LGPL runtime, MIT for Mono-provided class library, other licenses for non-Mono libraries bundled in for convenience like SharpZipLib.

                                And not everything is free.
                                True, iPhone and Android development with Mono is a paid commercial product.

                                Point taken on mono passing .net... Maybe? I found a handul of copy-paste press releases claiming that, that's pretty much it, though no I never got past the 2nd page of search results. Also this page lists what's left to do on mono vs .net, so it's at least lacking in some areas.
                                Mono is missing large Microsoft classes like WPF, but is pretty much always ahead on the technology part - not to mention being cross-platform. And the only people who moan that Mono is incomplete are people who refuse to use it - people developing for Mono either use the available classes, or use the fact that it's Free Software and add the missing classes

                                To make things clear here, I see microsoft as an arrogant company hellbent on controlling the computer industry from top to bottom, through more or less obvious means. And they have very shifting positions towards open source. So I'm very skeptical about things like mono. (And before anyone tries WINE is a completely different beast, since they have no ties with microsoft, and while I do use WINE it's a last resort)
                                Microsoft are interested in only one thing: making money. It's 2012, and they can't pretend they set the agenda anymore (e.g. on mobile they're a bit player). Making .NET more attractive generally increases their ability to sell Visual Studio, so it's in their best interests for .NET to remain attractive. Far from attacking Mono, the first external contributor to ASP.NET MVC4 when they started releasing it under a GPL-compatible license was Miguel de Icaza.

                                But hey, here's your chance to persuade me it's all in my head. Good luck...
                                It's all in your head. In the 11 years Mono has been with us, here's a partial list of things Microsoft has done to play nice with it (note that Apache 2.0 and Ms-PL licenses both include patent pledges, i.e. have no patent concerns):
                                • Released .NET Micro Framework under GPL-compatible Apache 2.0
                                • Invited Mono developers to speak at Microsoft conferences
                                • Removed doubt about ECMA334/335 patent concerns, by issuing a patent pledge similar in language to Oracle's ODF patent pledge
                                • Released ASP.NET MVC 1, 2, 3, and 4 under Ms-PL then Apache 2.0
                                • Released IronPython and IronRuby under Ms-PL then Apache 2.0
                                • Released F# under Apache 2.0
                                • Paid the MPEG-LA a license fee for every Linux user using Moonlight

                                Here's the complete list of times they've acted against Mono:

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