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Humble Indie Bundle V Runs Strong At $4M USD

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  • #16
    Originally posted by stqn View Post
    Not necessarily; there are a number of things that can be done server-side to prevent cheating, like not sending the enemies position to the client when they are not in sight, or checking the movement speed of the playerís avatar. It also depends greatly on the game, of course. Itís easier to detect cheating in a Chess game than in counter-strike .

    Worst case, there could be a player-maintained blacklist where each player can list players with whom they do not want to playÖ Or it could be automatic with a matchmaking system. But then again it depends on the game.

    Edit: now that I think of it, itís actually harder to check that a Chess player isnít using a program to help him playÖ
    Yes, different game types have different methods of checking for integrity and reducing the ability to cheat. I was mostly thinking of the two genres I play the most; FPSes and RTSes.

    But even if we completely remove malicious intent, open sourcing the engine and allowing people to connect with non-standard assets or non-standard binaries basically throws all integrity out the window. What I'm saying is it would make zero sense to have two people playing in the same game with different assets and different rules. You would really need a server to arbitrate the game (and the server would have to be proprietary or at least unmodifiable to the participants in the game, which just shifts the open source question to the server). The server would have to decide if two players can play in the same game compatibly under the same rules. Even if both players don't WANT to cheat, it's still possible that their mod would make the game unfair whether intentional or not.

    As far as sending an enemy's position only when they're supposed to be "in sight": a few games have tried this, but it's really unreliable and degrades the quality of the game. Anyone with more than 50 ms ping or so is going to be at an enormous disadvantage: they won't see enemies at all until after they've already been in view for a fraction of a second. By the time they have a chance to react, they're dead. For twitch games, there are some things that you just can't take away from the client. You can't make it a VNC client. The latency is too high.

    Maybe for a turn based strategy game you could go the VNC route and ensure absolute security. And you could open source the server and let people run whatever mods they want on the server. That could work.

    FPSes present real engineering challenges though because you have to balance playability and hackability, and unfortunately FPSes are the most likely genre to get hacked in the first place. Start introducing open source mods into this mix and it's just ugly.

    Something like a spectrum of "open source suitability / feasibility" for games would be :

    Single player = Very suitable
    Multiplayer turn based = Somewhat suitable
    Multiplayer real time = Not very suitable
    Multiplayer FPS (or other twitch game) = Not suitable at all

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Luke_Wolf View Post
      Bethseda games are actually one of the perfect examples, because you see... the point of Bethseda games, isn't the game itself.. it's that it's a low barrier to entry game engine (we're talking between $20-50 after all) allowing you to create mods to do almost whatever you want, which is ultimately the real point of those games, and they do have their unofficial patches, complete texture overhauls, models, quests, landmasses, etc.
      You don't get or even need source code to mod Bethesda's games. So this is a horrible example to support the "we need source code" argument.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by allquixotic View Post
        Oh come on. Even Richard Stallman recognizes that works of art don't need to be released under a free software license. What are these games if not works of art?
        The assets can be considered art, the engine is in no way art. And it's the engine that should be made free (not open-source, because I don't want to look at the source and not be able to modify it).

        Originally posted by allquixotic View Post
        Besides, it's not like most people (aside from large corporations) would have the manpower to take an open source game engine and really make use of it. Do you know OpenGL? No? Then why are you making a fuss?
        What are you talking about? Most of the games in HIB are written entirely by one person, so why would you need a corporation to fix a blunder they made? And no, I don't know OpenGL, but that does not mean I couldn't fix a misuse of other APIs used by the game. Most of the issues are with sound, not video anyway. And I can always LEARN OpenGL, I'm not too dumb to do it, just never needed until now.

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        • #19
          Come on, take one look at Q3's fast sqrt routine and say with a straight face that it's not art

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          • #20
            Originally posted by curaga View Post
            Come on, take one look at Q3's fast sqrt routine and say with a straight face that it's not art
            It's not art, it's black magic.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Ancurio View Post
              It's not art, it's black magic.
              And it is represented by very little data (you could read it aloud to someone in the time it takes to hold any normal conversation), so it's a great example in the big debate about what should be copyrightable and patentable. Even if the game code is open and the assets are under a restrictive license, there are textures and data elements small enough that they could be represented conveniently as "illegal numbers"

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              • #22
                Originally posted by yogi_berra View Post
                You don't get or even need source code to mod Bethesda's games. So this is a horrible example to support the "we need source code" argument.
                Actually you're completely wrong here, why? Because you have access to all the code and assets that make up the game itself. You don't get access to the engine code sure, but you've got access to everything else.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Luke_Wolf View Post
                  Actually you're completely wrong here, why? Because you have access to all the code and assets that make up the game itself. You don't get access to the engine code sure, but you've got access to everything else.
                  I'm completely wrong... but I'm right...

                  The mind boggles.

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                  • #24
                    Closing in on $5M now with just a few more hours to go.

                    The added games (Braid, etc.) seems to have given the Bundle a bit of a second wind.

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                    • #25
                      $5,105,975.08

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