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  • #76
    Originally posted by Hamish Wilson View Post
    I never necessarily said that Humble Bundle or LIMBO were conning Linux users (though the state of LIMBO should have been made more clear), I was stating it sets a bad precedent.
    Your exact words:
    It sets a horrible precedent for the future, encouraging developers to merely put out unoptimized Windows binaries of their games running through a WINE or similar layer merely to con Linux users out of their money.
    How can it be a precedent for future developers running their games with Wine to con the money out of you if it is not exactly that: a con?
    IMHO, and I think you will of course deny that, you single handedly, with writing this petition, have done more damage to Linux gaming than any developer could have done with making their game work with Wine instead of producing a native version.
    Well done.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by grantek View Post
      Well Limbo worked better for me than Psychonauts. Ryan Gordon fixed some bugs that should have been caught in QA (actually not even QA, they should have been caught in unit testing in the development phase), and now the game is just "unstable", but playable. I love the work the guy does, but he seems to only be employed on fixed-term contracts so doesn't have time to fix bugs once a port is shipped. Case in point, Super Meat Boy is still unplayable, there are acknowledged bugs that reliably affect everyone and have no workaround, but haven't been fixed since January. I'd like to run a Kickstarter fund or something to hire the guy for a year just to go through his bug database and fix stuff.
      I think we can all agree that Ryan Gordon is as close to they come to being a living god.

      Originally posted by TobiSGD View Post
      Your exact words:How can it be a precedent for future developers running their games with Wine to con the money out of you if it is not exactly that: a con? IMHO, and I think you will of course deny that, you single handedly, with writing this petition, have done more damage to Linux gaming than any developer could have done with making their game work with Wine instead of producing a native version.
      Well done.
      People have done that before and conned Linux users out of their money, by putting out a WINE or Cedega build and then abandoning it (Corel anyone?), and as I said before I never actually said that the Humble Bundle guys were conning anyone. On the other hand, has there ever been a company that has put out a WINE wrapped binary and then later put out a native version? I am not ignorant of the industry, and I have trouble thinking of any.

      Conclude as you wish, but I am not going to loose sleep at night about it. Instead, I will keep playing, buying, and supporting native Linux games. I will contribute to the Humble Bundle and their developers when I feel they deserve my support (and I will be buying this bundle, just waiting for some more credit). I will use WINE where appropriate, recognizing it is very useful software but should not be used in lieu of actually building Linux infrastructure. I will keep supporting the developers that have put real effort into their Linux support, such as Frozenbyte (who have done an awesome job in everything they have done for us) or Kot-in-Action Creative Artel who got horrible panned and flamed on this very forum (read that, and then see what it really means to be unreasonable) and really did get some people to conclude that Linux was not worth their support (thankfully not the views of the actual developers).

      I will keep working on my own game development skills and keep working on my own free software projects, in order to better the Linux ecosystem. And I am not going to believe that a company that made $7.5 million in revenue from the Xbox Live Arcade service in 2010 alone deserves sympathy for not putting in the same work that Frozenbyte did for Trine (since I have now learned they had to replace the exact same audio layer).

      So, conclude as you wish. I will keep supporting Linux gaming, thank you.
      Last edited by Hamish Wilson; 06-05-2012, 12:21 PM.

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      • #78
        They used wine, cope.

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        • #79
          Is it actually compiled against winelib?

          From looking through the package it looks like it's just the repackage Windows binary, if it was winelib it would be an ELF executable, right?

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by whizse View Post
            Is it actually compiled against winelib?

            From looking through the package it looks like it's just the repackage Windows binary, if it was winelib it would be an ELF executable, right?
            Correct, they used a redistributable install of Crossover (so they probably got direct help from CodeWeavers) to wrap Wine around the Windows binaries. The reason for this is they don't have full access to the Windows source code, having used Wwise, a windows-only middleware package to do sound effects.

            To do a full port they'd have to rewrite their sound engine to implement the work that Wwise does, and they apparently don't have the resources to do that.

            Comment


            • #81
              Right, so referring to winelib isn't right, as that would at least be a step in the right direction towards making a port.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by grantek View Post
                The reason for this is they don't have full access to the Windows source code, having used Wwise, a windows-only middleware package to do sound effects.
                Mac build is WINEd too?

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by RussianNeuroMancer View Post
                  Mac build is WINEd too?
                  AFAIK yes - using Cider.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by entropy View Post
                    AFAIK yes - using Cider.
                    You sure? Wwive (audio middleware) available for OS X.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by entropy View Post
                      AFAIK yes - using Cider.
                      This isn't true.
                      Limbo has a native Mac OS X version.


                      $ cd /Applications/LIMBO.app

                      $ ls -LR
                      Contents

                      ./Contents:
                      Frameworks Info.plist MacOS Resources

                      ./Contents/Frameworks:
                      Cg.framework

                      ./Contents/Frameworks/Cg.framework:
                      Cg

                      ./Contents/MacOS:
                      Limbo limbo_boot.pkg settings.txt
                      data limbo_runtime.pkg

                      ./Contents/MacOS/data:
                      audio

                      ./Contents/MacOS/data/audio:
                      Mac

                      ./Contents/MacOS/data/audio/Mac:
                      Init.bnk l_default.bnk l_intro.bnk

                      ./Contents/Resources:
                      de.lproj fr.lproj ko.lproj pt.lproj
                      en.lproj it.lproj limbo.icns zh-Hant.lproj
                      es.lproj ja.lproj limbobanner.png

                      ./Contents/Resources/de.lproj:
                      License.nib

                      ./Contents/Resources/en.lproj:
                      License.nib

                      ./Contents/Resources/es.lproj:
                      License.nib

                      ./Contents/Resources/fr.lproj:
                      License.nib

                      ./Contents/Resources/it.lproj:
                      License.nib

                      ./Contents/Resources/ja.lproj:
                      License.nib

                      ./Contents/Resources/ko.lproj:
                      License.nib

                      ./Contents/Resources/pt.lproj:
                      License.nib

                      ./Contents/Resources/zh-Hant.lproj:
                      License.nib
                      $

                      I found some interesting facts about Psychonauts and Limbo:

                      "Psychonauts in the Humble Bundle doesn't use Wine. The Steam and Mac App Store versions do (Transgaming's Cider, specifically)."

                      "Your Steam client should update to the non-Cider version right now. "

                      "This was updated today; you should have this next time Steam updates your game!"

                      Ryan Gordon http://twitter.com/#!/icculus/

                      "The audio middleware in question is Audiokinetic Wwise. Trine uses it as well, and Frozenbyte wrote a drop-in replacement for their Linux port; so it can't really be that hard.""

                      Klemens Baum http://www.ubuntuvibes.com/2012/06/l...equesting.html

                      "Perhaps one of the changes in the project itself was that we had a different approach to middleware. In the past we had mostly done stuff in-house, because it tends to be cheaper at first. With Trine 2 we knew that the schedule would be long, so we figured that we could spend some money on middleware that would save us time on the overall schedule and ensure console compatibility. We licensed Wwise for audio and Bink for video, and they worked reasonably well. Some of the time we saved has been lost since then though, we had to write our own audio system for Linux for example. But nevertheless this was a big change for us mentally. Related to this, Trine 2 was a lot less stressful than any of our earlier projects because we were able to pay all our bills on time, we were able to upgrade our development hardware and order enough console devkits, and so on. This helped development a lot even if it's not a creative change."

                      http://cheesetalks.twolofbees.com/frozenbyte1.php

                      II don't know why, but Playdead want keep Audiokinetic Wwise in Limbo for WIndows and Mac OS X. Publisher for Limbo (XBLA) was Microsoft Game Studios.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        They've added three more games to the bundle (Braid, Lone Survivor, Super Meat Boy). Also soon to cross $4m... maybe even 500k downloads.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Just an update, on my Core i3 first gen with Intel HD Graphics (Arch Linux x86-64):

                          Limbo works fine and doesn’t crash anymore (great!)

                          Amnesia still crashes on the profiles screen, and I read on their forum that at least Intel HD Graphics 2000 is required, so no luck for me here.

                          Sword and Sworcery works great (too bad the game seems boring.)

                          Psychonauts works, though the “bed selection” screen was jerky so I’m not sure if it is playable (I didn’t go further.)

                          Haven’t tried Bastion or the other games yet.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by stqn View Post
                            Sword and Sworcery works great (too bad the game seems boring.)
                            ...
                            Havenít tried Bastion or the other games yet.
                            Guess it's a matter of taste. S&S does not try to be action packed. It tells a story with subtle commentaries thrown in, all wrapped in copious amounts of quirk and atmosphere. Bastion, Limbo, Braid and Lone Survivor also share this in that they all lean towards the "artsy" end of the gaming spectrum, and as such are probably not for everyone.

                            I say bring us more of this.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Here is the final result, if anyone is interested:

                              Dear Humble Indie Bundle,

                              As an owner of five of your bundles (and as someone who would have happily supported more if circumstances would have allowed it), including the Humble Indie Bundle V, I ask of you not to think of this as an attack on the Humble Indie Bundle nor, as some have suggested, an action that ignores the positive changes you have done for the Linux game industry. Rather, this is merely a means to try and ensure that these positive changes can continue. We also hope that through this we can help to ensure that both the Linux community and the Humble Indie Bundle can continue to have a positive and meaningful relationship.

                              Linux users have been supporting the Humble Indie Bundle from the beginning and a relation of mutual trust has grown between the people behind the Bundle and the Linux community. Unfortunately, we feel this trust has been violated by the inclusion of a non-native Linux game in the latest Bundle. This is not merely a complaint about one game included in one Bundle, in this case LIMBO. It sets a horrible precedent for the future, encouraging other developers to merely put out unoptimized Windows binaries of their games running through a WINE or similar layer merely to con Linux users out of their money. We can not allow this to happen, not to the Humble Indie Bundle.

                              Considering this, and not wanting to boycott the Bundle as many of the developers that were involved were very much deserving of our money as were many of the charities, I tried to think of a constructive way to demonstrate our concerns in an organized and collected manner. A petition was the best means I could find to accomplish this. Over the past few weeks I have collected a total of 543 signatures as of the time of this writing. Each of these signatories had their own views and many added their own commentary alongside their signatures. But we are all agreed that the Bundle went down the wrong path with the inclusion of a non native version of LIMBO.

                              I have received a variety of responses from the community due to my actions, including praise and support but also criticism and attacks, some of which were very personal. I took these as a demonstration of the amount of feeling people have invested in these Bundles, and with that in mind, analyzed my own feelings on the matter. I came out of it that much surer of why this protest was necessary and why the Humble Indie Bundles must continue to give everyone the most value for their money. There is too much good will invested in it, and Linux users contributed to this in the knowledge that it would help promote the Linux gaming. That is why we did this; we want the Bundle to continue in this purpose.

                              I have also noticed that you have recently posted that you want to hire more Linux game developers. We appreciate this and hope it will continue to lead everyone in the right direction. A link to the petition is included bellow. Please go through it and read people's comments, and I would appreciate any feedback you could give me on the matter.

                              http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/hib-native/

                              Thank you,
                              Hamish Paul Wilson

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                So far I've only tried Bastion and Limbo and I'm astonished at how trouble free the installs were.

                                I love Ubuntu.

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