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  • #61
    Originally posted by Hamish Wilson View Post
    I agree it is a bit of a tenuous distinction (especially with the quality of Flash on Linux), but at least with Flash you are writing to Flash and not Windows. In this case, they are writing to Windows instead of Linux and paring a translator with it in the hopes you would not notice. It would be like if you bought a book in Spanish that promised English support because for the price of the book they got some Spanish guy to follow you around and read the book out to you. It is all kind of awkward.
    With winelib you are just writing to the win32 API. There is no translator.

    The only difference is that in winelib's case that API was implemented by a 3rd party based on documentation and reverse-engineering, while Flash is built directly by Adobe. So it would be equivalent to running a Flash game on Lightspark.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by smitty3268 View Post
      With winelib you are just writing to the win32 API. There is no translator. The only difference is that in winelib's case that API was implemented by a 3rd party based on documentation and reverse-engineering, while Flash is built directly by Adobe.
      Winelib is the translator, it is taking Win32 calls and changing them to native system calls. Otherwise it would simply be making native calls and the game would be native.

      When a developer puts out a Flash game, it can at least be said that they are supporting Flash. But in this instance they are supporting Windows and Mac but not Linux. We have to use the translators dub. Now, it may be a very nice dub with excellent translations and almost complete interchangeability in meaning, but it is still not as nice as actually playing a game in your native language. It is about fairness as much as anything else - other platforms got full support.

      This was never a problem for the Humble Bundles before - why make it one now?

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Hamish Wilson View Post
        Winelib is the translator, it is taking Win32 calls and changing them to native system calls. Otherwise it would simply be making native calls and the game would be native.
        In that case, GTK and Qt are also translators. WineLib is exactly the same thing.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by smitty3268 View Post
          In that case, GTK and Qt are also translators. WineLib is exactly the same thing.
          GTK and QT are making native system calls. Programs can use GTK and QT to form their GUIs on any of the supported platforms, but they are talking to libraries that make native calls. When you pack a Windows binary with winelib, your binary is talking to libraries which are making Widows calls. These libraries are further talking to winelib to translate these calls to native calls. There is a difference.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Hamish Wilson View Post
            Winelib is the translator, it is taking Win32 calls and changing them to native system calls. Otherwise it would simply be making native calls and the game would be native.

            When a developer puts out a Flash game, it can at least be said that they are supporting Flash. But in this instance they are supporting Windows and Mac but not Linux. We have to use the translators dub. Now, it may be a very nice dub with excellent translations and almost complete interchangeability in meaning, but it is still not as nice as actually playing a game in your native language. It is about fairness as much as anything else - other platforms got full support.

            This was never a problem for the Humble Bundles before - why make it one now?
            You realize that these are games from independent developers? Small development teams without much money, where it possibly gave not enough funding for a native Linux port? How do you think those developers should afford to make a Linux port of their future ports when they are denied to make money with such great opportunities like the Humble Bundles, just because you find it unfair that you have to use Wine?
            This petition is short-sighted and rather damaging to the future of Linux gaming, IMHO.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by TobiSGD View Post
              You realize that these are games from independent developers? Small development teams without much money, where it possibly gave not enough funding for a native Linux port? How do you think those developers should afford to make a Linux port of their future ports when they are denied to make money with such great opportunities like the Humble Bundles, just because you find it unfair that you have to use Wine? This petition is short-sighted and rather damaging to the future of Linux gaming, IMHO.
              You do realize that developers in the Humble Indie Bundle expect that they will make a considerable amount of money because of it? You do realize that the money they do get is derived from the goodwill generated by their efforts to meet the Humble Indie Bundle's requirements? You do realize that several game developers with native games have tried to get into the Bundle before and have been turned down for no real clear reasons, and yet they let LIMBO in with a half-measure? You do realize that all of the other developers put in the effort to port their games over before? You do realize that the the Humble Bundle is not a charity, and the charities that are being supported are not the same as the developers? You do realize that when you a selling product like a business, you are expected to be treated like a business?

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              • #67
                Also, in response to this being construed as short-sighted I will repost what I posted on another forum:

                The main thing I am worried about is that this can soil the Bundle's future potential on Linux. It is quite clear from Ryan Gordon's comments that he has a large vested interest in the Bundle as he feels it is the steeping stone we need to get the Linux games industry to finally be fully recognized - an actually vibrant native community where we are not always treated like second class citizens. We have come a long way towards this in the past few years, and I want this growth to continue.

                This is a threat to that - it destroys the incentive to build that bright future just for short-term convenience through the use of a hack. It is like the snake-oil sold by Transgaming all over again. A relevant quote from the time of Loki's closure:
                The arrival of TransGaming to me is the clearest indication that Loki failed to jump-start a Linux gaming industry as we'd hoped, because TransGaming has nothing to do with Linux games. Their message to game developers is: "Use DirectX and develop for Windows. We'll help you sell your Windows products to Linux users." TransGaming's strategy is the same one Corel used in its Linux applications business. In the end I don't think they'll be any more successful than Corel was.
                http://web.archive.org/web/200202022.../01/24/2118235

                Humble Bundle could be seen as the new Loki, what could jump start Linux game development. I do not want to soil that opportunity just because someone did not pay attention when selecting their middle-ware.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Hamish Wilson View Post
                  GTK and QT are making native system calls. Programs can use GTK and QT to form their GUIs on any of the supported platforms, but they are talking to libraries that make native calls. When you pack a Windows binary with winelib, your binary is talking to libraries which are making Widows calls. These libraries are further talking to winelib to translate these calls to native calls. There is a difference.
                  No, you don't understand what winelib is.

                  You are describing WINE.

                  Not winelib. It makes the same native system calls that GTK and Qt make. There is no windows binary - it's a linux binary that calls into a native Win32 API.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Hamish Wilson View Post
                    You do realize that developers in the Humble Indie Bundle expect that they will make a considerable amount of money because of it?
                    Things like that are not foreseeable. Nobody knows how good or bad the particular bundle sells.

                    You do realize that the money they do get is derived from the goodwill generated by their efforts to meet the Humble Indie Bundle's requirements?
                    If it didn't met the requirements, why is it in there?

                    You do realize that several game developers with native games have tried to get into the Bundle before and have been turned down for no real clear reasons, and yet they let LIMBO in with a half-measure? You do realize that all of the other developers put in the effort to port their games over before?
                    So instead of asking the developers and the people that are responsible for the selection of the games why they chose this game and have rejected others your first idea was: "Let's make a petition, it will make the Linux gamers looking good!"? Do you have made any effort to get an answer to those questions before setting up a mass protest? Also, I can't see anything about the rejection of native games in your petition, all you complain about is the use of Wine.

                    You do realize that the the Humble Bundle is not a charity, and the charities that are being supported are not the same as the developers? You do realize that when you a selling product like a business, you are expected to be treated like a business?
                    So basically you are saying whenever a product you bought from a business isn't like you expected you set up a petition instead of going back to the business with your feedback first and may be ask what happened and why? Or is this only when Linux is involved?

                    I still think that your petition is damaging and not helping to bring gaming on Linux forward in any case.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by TobiSGD View Post
                      So instead of asking the developers and the people that are responsible for the selection of the games why they chose this game and have rejected others your first idea was: "Let's make a petition, it will make the Linux gamers looking good!"? Do you have made any effort to get an answer to those questions before setting up a mass protest?
                      It was far from my first idea, in fact I was reluctant to do it. I know that most petitions do not go anywhere, but I wanted a way to constructively criticize. Instead of sending a flame to the Humble people (and I do need to get their attention considering I do in fact intend to purchase the Bundle and advise other people to do so), I wanted to see if my position had support - which it definitely does based on the number of signatures. With the strength of this, I will approach the Humble Bundle people and outline the reasons for our complaints and make constructive suggestions on what they can do and why this has ruffled our feathers.

                      I am doing this because I did not want to flame and I wanted to discourage personal attacks, allowing people to do a united collective effort instead of nasty swipes. For the most part I think I have succeed on that front.

                      I have contacted people behind the Humble Bundle before by the way; I do not think I have not been measured in my response.

                      Originally posted by TobiSGD View Post
                      Also, I can't see anything about the rejection of native games in your petition, all you complain about is the use of Wine.
                      It is something I have noticed, but it is besides the point when it comes to the exact reasons for the petition. I was simply staying focused.

                      Originally posted by TobiSGD View Post
                      So basically you are saying whenever a product you bought from a business isn't like you expected you set up a petition instead of going back to the business with your feedback first and may be ask what happened and why? Or is this only when Linux is involved? I still think that your petition is damaging and not helping to bring gaming on Linux forward in any case.
                      I am voicing our discontent over an apparent change in policy. I do not see how this is damaging or being unreasonable, especially since I do intend to talk to them constructively once I have enough results. You do not seem to understand what a petition is supposed to accomplish - it is supposed to attract support for a specific issue to bring it to the attention to the public and the people who can affect the issue. It is a legitimate form of discourse.

                      I agree that there have been many poorly thought out petitions, but this one is not one of them - I put a lot of thought into it before creating it. I have been a part of the Linux gaming scene a long time and I intend to act in it's best interests. This move can damage it's interests - and I hope to bring that to peoples attention.
                      Last edited by Hamish Wilson; 06-04-2012, 10:46 PM.

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                      • #71
                        Wait, you really think that this petition was reasonable and not a flame? May I cite some of the expressions you used?
                        this trust has been violated
                        horrible precedent
                        merely to con Linux users out of their money
                        threat of non-native binaries
                        Actually you are blaming the developers to con the money out of you in your petition, and these are exactly the words you have used. Do you really think that sounds reasonable and not like flaming to the developers of Limbo? Or any other development team that may be not able to currently afford a native Linux port?
                        So as I read it your standpoint is: Hey, if you can't afford to make a native Linux port, please don't make the effort that it at least runs non-native on our platform, we won't buy that crap, give us native or die.
                        If that is your definition of reasonable and not damaging I would like to see what happens if you are intentionally unreasonable and damaging.

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                        • #72
                          Your reading is off - I said that including WINE wrapper games in the Humble Bundle will encourage other developers to follow suit, which will lead to less native Linux games being produced as it will encourage more developers to opt instead for half-measures thinking that Linux users will pay for these "ports" anyway just for the sake of running it on Linux.

                          I never necessarily said that Humble Bundle or LIMBO were conning Linux users (though the state of LIMBO should have been made more clear), I was stating it sets a bad precedent. You should also notice that I said you should buy the Bundle to support the other developers (I am a big fan of Frictional's games, for instance, and would not want to hurt them) and even the Bundle guys themselves, and noted that you can give LIMBO what you feel is a fair amount of money when doing your purchase.

                          I am not attacking anyone - I am attacking a potential outcome. My writing was actually fairly clear on that.
                          Last edited by Hamish Wilson; 06-04-2012, 11:58 PM.

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                          • #73
                            Well Limbo worked better for me than Psychonauts. Ryan Gordon fixed some bugs that should have been caught in QA (actually not even QA, they should have been caught in unit testing in the development phase), and now the game is just "unstable", but playable. I love the work the guy does, but he seems to only be employed on fixed-term contracts so doesn't have time to fix bugs once a port is shipped. Case in point, Super Meat Boy is still unplayable, there are acknowledged bugs that reliably affect everyone and have no workaround, but haven't been fixed since January.

                            I'd like to run a Kickstarter fund or something to hire the guy for a year just to go through his bug database and fix stuff.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by KameZero View Post
                              So email the games devs? Phoronix users don't really have any control over the source code of the hib games.
                              I've emailed HIB.
                              I encourage others to do so too. Address is contact -at- humblebundle [dot] com
                              I'm bringing the debate into the public.

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                              • #75
                                Frankly I agree. Shipping with winelib is equal to shipping a GBA rom just because a decent emulator exists for linux.

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