Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Ryan Gordon Criticizes Open-Source Drivers Again

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Ryan Gordon Criticizes Open-Source Drivers Again

    Phoronix: Ryan Gordon Criticizes Open-Source Drivers Again

    There's just one and a half days left to the Humble Indie Bundle #3, but in less than two weeks the game offering has already grossed nearly $1.9M USD. Recently the developers behind these indie games had allowed the community to ask them questions on Reddit about their work. Ryan "Icculus" Gordon was one of the developers responding and he had provided some interesting comments...

    http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=OTc2Ng

  • #2
    Reading that thread and noting about the game bug fixes, linux sure could use with Desura. Or whatever. So long as it can work without DRM (just because that stuff is nasty), and allow you to check for updates, but not apply them if you don't want to. So there's something I'm hoping to see.
    Ironically, improved open source drivers are giving them problems. Have to laugh at that one. Makes sense though - more usable drivers, more driver quirks to be aware of. People just happened to know their way around the nvidia blobs, and now have to deal with other drivers. Long term, this should help stabilise all drivers though. Nothing like a bit of competition to make sure things stick to spec.

    Comment


    • #3
      I love everything this guy had to say. He's blunt -- that is, he doesn't try to make everything seem like it's all rainbows and happiness -- and that's a good thing. He points out problems for what they are, and he tells you how he deals with them.

      I feel his pain regarding packaging. No matter what package format you pick, you're wrong. Even with tools to help you auto-package everything in multiple package formats, you're still multiplying the amount of testing you need to do to support all those different formats. It's a pain in the ass, and it just feels like there should be some golden standard that everyone agrees on, though I realize the problem is quite complicated.

      His stance on open source drivers is interesting, and one that I'd never considered until now. Like he said: previously you could just tell anyone using open source drivers to suck it up when they had problems running games. Now those open source drivers are just good enough to kind-of-sort-of work, which means there's suddenly a perception that all software needs to work on those (less complete) open source drivers in addition to the (more complete) proprietary drivers. Suddenly new bugs show up in bug trackers that would never have existed if proprietary drivers were still the only usable drivers.

      Hypothetical analogy: It's like a website developer whose sites used to work "everywhere", but suddenly he starts getting reports about his site not working on Opera* because now Opera has enough market share to be considered a major browser. Before Opera became "major", the developer could have just told Opera users to bring their sob stories somewhere else; now suddenly he has to support yet another environment.


      *Note to Opera users: It's a hypothetical situation. Quell your hipster rage.

      Comment


      • #4
        i don't think anyone sane has ever said something different to what Ryan Gordon says


        especially the packaging situation is cancer

        Comment


        • #5
          +1 on all the stuff on packaging (well, on everything, but packaging in particular), I wish everyone just used .deb and be done with it.

          Luke.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by 89c51 View Post
            i don't think anyone sane has ever said something different to what Ryan Gordon says


            especially the packaging situation is cancer
            Why not provide a .tar.* like firefox nightlies?
            Installation process: Extract them with your favourite archive tool.
            Running it: Double click on the binary.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by ChrisXY View Post
              Why not provide a .tar.* like firefox nightlies?
              Installation process: Extract them with your favourite archive tool.
              Running it: Double click on the binary.
              Two words: dependency management.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by ean5533 View Post
                Two words: dependency management.
                ... well a static build then

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Kazade View Post
                  +1 on all the stuff on packaging (well, on everything, but packaging in particular), I wish everyone just used .deb and be done with it.

                  Luke.
                  Nooo....you didn't....noooo that's going to start a war.
                  Personally, I think deb, rpm, and tar.gz or tar.bz2. That should cover just about everything out there. The real problem isn't in the packaging format however, it's in the installation, and that's something that can be very distro dependent. And a common package manager won't do. It's a bugger of a thing, but there really is no one size fits all for linux there.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by staalmannen View Post
                    ... well a static build then
                    My sarcasm detector doesn't work on Mondays, so I'm just going to guess that you're being serious. Forgive me if you weren't.

                    You're suggesting statically bundling libraries with apps. That's a very long conversation, but suffice it to say that it flies in the face of traditional Linux software development. If you are in favor of static bundling, you have a whole lot of people that you're going to need to convince. I don't know enough about the topic to make a bulletproof argument either way, but my gut tells me that static bundling is a bad path to start walking down.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ean5533 View Post
                      I don't know enough about the topic to make a bulletproof argument either way, but my gut tells me that static bundling is a bad path to start walking down.
                      But since the distributed software is proprietary and recompiling against different versions of the libraries is not possible there is no other way to make it run on an old ubunto and at the same time on a new arch without having to install a crapload of legacy dependencies on Arch.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ChrisXY View Post
                        Why not provide a .tar.* like firefox nightlies?
                        Installation process: Extract them with your favourite archive tool.
                        Running it: Double click on the binary.
                        don't know the technicalities behind this -and i am not a computer hacker- but what we need is something that will be able to work both on a website and through a "software store/app". (ie click a "link" on the web and get the store/app handle it for you).

                        and this needs to work on all distros and be central (in the sense of one way to install at least for the average user) and be able to handle commercial stuff experimental stuff and many more.

                        influential people high on the community must push towards that direction.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Icculus

                          From what I can tell, Ryan is a person that deeply loves linux and open source, but is also incredibly pragmatic. His hybrid binary format got shot down by the zealots, which is unfortunate. I for one would love to see more people like him in positions of power, instead of people that argue whether the man-pages are free http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/2006-03-15 . Here is a guy that can actually improve an experience for users.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ChrisXY View Post
                            But since the distributed software is proprietary and recompiling against different versions of the libraries is not possible there is no other way to make it run on an old ubunto and at the same time on a new arch without having to install a crapload of legacy dependencies on Arch.
                            I don't deal with closed source software on Linux very often, so I've never had to think about it. However, I can immediately say that bundling libraries would get very ugly very quickly, because you don't know when to stop. That is, you don't know when you can assume a certain library will definitely be installed.

                            Let's say you write an app that uses cairo. If you bundle libcairo2, you also have to make a decision about whether to bundle each of its dependencies or to assume that they exist on the system. Here are all of libcairo2's dependencies. And each of them have their own dependencies. How do you make the decision about which ones you need to bundle and which ones you can assume will already exist?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by garytr24 View Post
                              From what I can tell, Ryan is a person that deeply loves linux and open source, but is also incredibly pragmatic. His hybrid binary format got shot down by the zealots, which is unfortunate. I for one would love to see more people like him in positions of power, instead of people that argue whether the man-pages are free http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/2006-03-15 . Here is a guy that can actually improve an experience for users.
                              Well, it may sound strange, but arguing for things like that is important. It's because of holding onto open principles in all cases that got GNU/Linux to where it is today. The thing is....linux isn't windows. It's not meant to be. If you want linux, but then want it to happen all like windows, then what's the point? So sticking to your guns in the larger and smaller cases is very important, including to the end experience for the user.
                              Also, I'm not 100% familiar with the deal around why the hybrid format was rejected, but I suspect it's mostly: what's good for games is nice and all, but the entire system shouldn't revolve around that. I'll repeat however: I'm not 100% familiar with that situation!

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X