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Is LGP Going The Way Of Loki Software?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Svartalf View Post
    If you're not going to vote FOR Linux for whatever reasons you have (I'm not challenging your complaint- I get you don't want anything out there and you want the "shiny" stuff that others have...) you need to realize that buying a Windows title is not going to help things AT ALL. They don't have a magic window into what OS you're running- they think you're running Windows.
    Well you also have to realize that asking a gamer to NOT buy a solution that fixes their itch is not a reasonable thing to ask as well. If anything it can damage the PC gaming ecosystem even further. " Game doesn't sell on windows, ok next release is console only". Every non vote for windows is more then likely to be counted as a vote against PC gaming and linux never will even come into consideration.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by deanjo View Post
      Well you also have to realize that asking a gamer to NOT buy a solution that fixes their itch is not a reasonable thing to ask as well. If anything it can damage the PC gaming ecosystem even further. " Game doesn't sell on windows, ok next release is console only". Every non vote for windows is more then likely to be counted as a vote against PC gaming and linux never will even come into consideration.
      I very much like your point. Personally, I think it would be pretty cool to use a Linux live CD like you would a game console. Just a thought though...

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      • #63
        I always wonder where the 20:1 piracy figures come from, because whenever I think of checking that I usually can't find a single LGP game shared anywhere.
        Just now a search for "linux" at TBP has 1 LGP title, out of 79 hits.

        Before accusing me of failing morals because of the above, consider that I haven't pirated a single computer game in years. :P

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        • #64
          Originally posted by deanjo View Post
          Well you also have to realize that asking a gamer to NOT buy a solution that fixes their itch is not a reasonable thing to ask as well. If anything it can damage the PC gaming ecosystem even further. " Game doesn't sell on windows, ok next release is console only". Every non vote for windows is more then likely to be counted as a vote against PC gaming and linux never will even come into consideration.
          There is a problem there, yes. But voting for Windows doesn't fix things at all either. Perhaps that is the way that AAA titles will go for a while as the Indies building up steam now are going up the food chain.

          I'll be honest and state I think that most (over 2/3rds...) of the AAA titles aren't and weren't worth buying in the first place. I think the only titles I've bought that were AAA that were worth the cash was Fallout 3, God of War III, and Heavy Rain. Most of the rest of the stuff I see on the shelves hasn't appealed to me or was drek.

          Perhaps we're arguing about something that's a bit less relevant than we think it is...

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Svartalf View Post
            There is a problem there, yes. But voting for Windows doesn't fix things at all either. Perhaps that is the way that AAA titles will go for a while as the Indies building up steam now are going up the food chain.

            I'll be honest and state I think that most (over 2/3rds...) of the AAA titles aren't and weren't worth buying in the first place. I think the only titles I've bought that were AAA that were worth the cash was Fallout 3, God of War III, and Heavy Rain. Most of the rest of the stuff I see on the shelves hasn't appealed to me or was drek.

            Perhaps we're arguing about something that's a bit less relevant than we think it is...
            I personally didn't think the last two were worth it, but the first one... Seriously, it would be pretty cool to have Fallout for Linux

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            • #66
              Originally posted by LinuxID10T View Post
              I personally didn't think the last two were worth it, but the first one... Seriously, it would be pretty cool to have Fallout for Linux
              No kidding. It's still nice on the PS3. I'm just not overall likely to get much of anything else for that console, though... GoW3 was more a present for the kids and might well be one of my last purchases for a while- as much as I wanted it, I've issues with their taking OtherOS out of the firmware loadout on my 160G.

              As it stands, I think we're all going to find that we're going to differ on what is good/no-good and the ratios I'm giving here are going to be close to the same for other people.

              I agree we've got problems, guys. I've not got all the answers, as much as I wish I did. Some of these issues could be answered with substantively more money than Michael Simms has poured into things here; a PowerBall big jackpot win would leave one flush enough with cash to do it with current circumstances. But that's pipedreaming there. I've got more than I can probably ever handle solo with that wishlist thread catch we've gotten- and I'm not wholly sure how a porting consortium of devs accross international lines would even work right at the moment. Might work well, might not work worth a flip.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Svartalf View Post
                Some of these issues could be answered with substantively more money than Michael Simms has poured into things here; a PowerBall big jackpot win would leave one flush enough with cash to do it with current circumstances.
                OK, I'm starting to see a workable strategy here. Everyone needs to focus on finding the millionaires in their circle of friends and installing Linux on *their* systems

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by curaga View Post
                  I always wonder where the 20:1 piracy figures come from, because whenever I think of checking that I usually can't find a single LGP game shared anywhere.
                  Just now a search for "linux" at TBP has 1 LGP title, out of 79 hits.

                  Before accusing me of failing morals because of the above, consider that I haven't pirated a single computer game in years. :P
                  There's no sharing going on right now as best as I can tell for my title I was involved with. It's my understanding that it sold a bit over 200 copies, and there's at least 2000 in the wild based on watching the torrents when it showed up. If you think about even ONE torrent at The Pirate Bay that has LGP titles, there's an issue going on there. It gives studios like Ascaron the ability to INSIST upon DRM being in the mix- which is what happened. Each and every person sharing that game via TPB or other torrent trackers is taking away your position for you. You don't want them doing it.

                  Just so you know, I'm not the one asking for or demanding DRM- I'm someone that detests the whole concept and thinks it's a waste of time and resources on both the developer's and the customer's side of things. I've not seen a thin dime for Ballistics yet because of things I mentioned in this thread though.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by bridgman View Post
                    OK, I'm starting to see a workable strategy here. Everyone needs to focus on finding the millionaires in their circle of friends and installing Linux on *their* systems
                    ROFLMAO! I know I wish I could be one of those multimillionaires.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Svartalf View Post
                      ROFLMAO! I know I wish I could be one of those multimillionaires.
                      Maybe you could... Drop the price to $5.00 USD on the small games and $10.00 USD on the large ones, and watch your sales rise through the roof.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by bridgman View Post
                        OK, I'm starting to see a workable strategy here. Everyone needs to focus on finding the millionaires in their circle of friends and installing Linux on *their* systems
                        I have tried, and believe me, they love der fucking windows like i love women.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by LinuxID10T View Post
                          Maybe you could... Drop the price to $5.00 USD on the small games and $10.00 USD on the large ones, and watch your sales rise through the roof.
                          Unfortunately, there's this NASTY thing called per-unit royalties that may/may not preclude one doing that as it could be below the same.

                          It doesn't work along the ways that most people think they do.

                          You pay an up-front amount of money to get the right to produce said port unless you go to an Indie like I've done and get a percentage of Linux proceeds deal with them. This amount varies but is in the solid 5 figures range for the class of games LGP have been able to get. It's in the 6's for things like the stuff we keep getting requests for. That is before you get to even start and it comes out of your hide and has to come back somewhere if you're even going to break even.

                          Then you do your development work to move it over. Some titles are cleanly written and take minimal effort to get up and going (Caster, for example...) and others aren't so nice (**cough** Disciples 2...**cough**). That means you have a time to port there that could be short or long- about like you see with LGP right now. Now you have to PAY these people unless they're doing it out of the kindness of their hearts (yeah...riiight...)- so you need to account for that as well. It's typically an hourly rate or you cut a commission deal like LGP does, which would be a generous cut of the proceeds...if the title sells decently.

                          At that point, you might be at a point where you need to put copies up for download or purchase in meatspace. If you make meatspace stuff, you'll need to get in touch with a duplicator to press the CD's/DVD's and to package them up. Figure at least 1-2 dollars per copy for that if you're doing meatspace stuff. It should be noted that not all royalty deals for porting/publication allow you to provide downloadable content versions of the title; as often as not you've got to get a separate deal for that one.

                          Once you've made up your copies to be sold, you immediately owe per-unit royalties. This is one of the things that killed Loki games- it's what cost them over a quarter mil to iD over Quake 3:Arena. In that case, Loki pressed entirely TOO many of the copies, screwed up their delivery logistics and had most everyone buy the Windows SKU and "patch" it. (There is a reason why I do probably carry on a bit more than I ought to about that subject...we had a shot THEN to have it all come together and people in the community unwittingly let everyone else down because of "I want it NOW" thinking...) You owe this up-front, really, again, like the source code access cost you. They cut you a smidge of slack on the delivery of that money so you press and pray the title sells reasonably well or the publisher/studio cuts you some more slack- or you're flush enough with cash to spend that money as well.

                          In the end, the access royalties and per-unit royalties end up being that $5-10 you refer to as being a magic price. It certainly won't cover developer costs, duplicator costs, or...god forbid, profits.

                          Why does GoG sell it for those amounts? Because they're an industry insider (CD Projekct runs the company in question...) and the titles they're selling are off the back-inventory that was previously not being published or sold at the time they scored the deal. The studio or publisher has already made back everything they were going to through the normal channels and they're letting GoG sell them at the low prices they are and online so they can mine that last smidge of potential profits out of the titles in question. I'm hopeful to wedge us into that space so we can at least get decent titles at fair prices that while they're AAA titles of yesteryear, they're still fun and very much worth what they're asking for them. That way we can get better sales figures for Linux as a potential market for the other players in the industry.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by L33F3R View Post
                            I have tried, and believe me, they love der fucking windows like i love women.
                            Not all of them do. I'm just not connected enough to the millionaires in question to get seed money for things.

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                            • #74
                              Whatever

                              Well, whatever.

                              I'm personally happy with what LGP provides. I didn't care for the DRM either, but I was able to live with it. Now that I understand why the DRM is there in the first place, I have even less a problem with it.

                              I, unfortunately, didn't know LGP even existed until they had that big sale not too far back and saw a news posting on it (probably on phoronix, I don't think slashdot even posted anything up about that sale). Until then, I had no idea. I promptly purchased X3 and Jets 'n Guns.

                              I received X3 in a timely manager, but Jets 'n Guns I didn't receive until months later, and when I finally did get it (after sending some emails back and forth), it was for the regular price and not the sale price. I wouldn't have put up with this from any regular company. But I made an exception for a linux company (in particular, a linux game company).

                              I tried the Shadowgrounds: survivor demo, loved it, and ordered it as well as the previous Shadowgrounds game. This time around I received games quickly with no issues. Fortunately, it seems my issue with Jets 'n Guns was a fluke, and not a common occurrence.

                              While this isn't entirely off topic, I have some comments and questions:

                              I don't mind paying more money for native linux games, because I'm more than happy to have... native linux games. In fact, I'd like to buy more.

                              To recap, I currently have:
                              X3
                              Shadowgrounds
                              Shadowgrounds: Survivor
                              Jets 'n Guns

                              Can anyone recommend some more good titles for me to buy?

                              LGP team, can you PLEASE patch your shadowground games to run properly on 64-bit linux? I'm tired of having to explicitly point these games to use the correct gtk libraries (ie, the ones that ship with the game). This would be TRIVIAL to fix. If there's a shortage of manpower, I'd be willing to help with the fix personally.

                              For X3, does someone know of a functional and (this is important) left-handed friendly flight stick? This has kept me from playing the game pased 45 minutes. I like the game a lot so far, but my current flight stick is too anemic for how I want to play the game, and all the others I see that are good enough are strictly for right-handers.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by hiryu View Post
                                For X3, does someone know of a functional and (this is important) left-handed friendly flight stick? This has kept me from playing the game pased 45 minutes. I like the game a lot so far, but my current flight stick is too anemic for how I want to play the game, and all the others I see that are good enough are strictly for right-handers.
                                I've tried X3 with 2 good flight sticks, and I wouldn't recommend it - the game is really geared towards mouse control. Even space battles are a problem, since all fight is done at too far a distance for a joystick to be convenient (not precise enough unless you'd get really close, and you'd be dust before you'd get close enough).

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