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  • #76
    Originally posted by Dragonlord View Post
    Wine is BAD for Linux because it strengthens Windows as the OS. It's an emulator and that's the problem. It's not "native" application and therefore prone to all sorts of problems. Wine is NOT a solution for promoting Linux as a gaming system, it's the exact opposite.
    Actually there are some games that are no more compatible with the recent releases of Windows like Vista or 7, some even with XP, but are with "Platinum" state in winehq's db. Of course that games aren't so popular now as they were in some point in the past, but there's passengers for every plane. Just "ours" country-side is much smaller than the trans-continental one. Some titles should be preserved for future generations even just from historical standpoint.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Dragonlord
      Wine is BAD for Linux because it strengthens Windows as the OS. It's an emulator and that's the problem. It's not "native" application and therefore prone to all sorts of problems. Wine is NOT a solution for promoting Linux as a gaming system, it's the exact opposite.
      I'm one of those people who are fascinated by linux, but don't really use it. I have it installed on my AMD Phenom x4 machine, but I dual boot it with Windows 7, and I rarely use Ubuntu. I also have it on installed on my PowerBook G4, but mainly to keep it on life support. If it were an x86 laptop (which I plan on getting a new one soon), I'll probably just run Windows 7.

      The #1 reason I don't dump Windows for linux, is for games. Like it or not, the only reason I even considered running Linux was cause of Wine. When I mean games, I don't mean open source games neither. I'm talking about World of Warcraft, Crysis, and Mass Effect.

      The linux market is currently 1%, and you want to win game developers by forcing them to develop straight to linux? You'll have to get more people using linux first, and lots of people won't because of games.

      There's was some news about DX10/11 that'll run natively on Linux. Haven't heard anything about it since, but allowing Wine to use this will greatly increase the speed and compatibility of games. Once people find out that Linux can run commercial games just fine, they'll make the switch, and developers will as well.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
        The #1 reason I don't dump Windows for linux, is for games. Like it or not, the only reason I even considered running Linux was cause of Wine. When I mean games, I don't mean open source games neither. I'm talking about World of Warcraft, Crysis, and Mass Effect.
        If all (or mostly) you do is play those kind of games on your computer then you are right in that it's better to just keep running windows. I also prefer to play games on a real SNES than go to the trouble of running emulators on my pc. If you only intended to use linux because of wine then it's obvious you wouldn't be using it much. Wine pretty much sucks. Users who choose linux have a very different and varied set of reasons to do so, but playing the current top selling games isn't one of them. It may be because it's more secure, malware/spyware/virus free, more customizable, etc.

        Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
        The linux market is currently 1%
        No it's not. Recent studies show that it's probably more than apple's, if including android and the likes. That number (1%) is just what the big guys (MS and Apple) keep saying to try and make it go away, in the hopes that if they repeat a lie many times it will become true. Not that I care about linux having more users. I like the fact that hackers and malware authors are more interested on windows, thank you very much.

        Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
        There's was some news about DX10/11 that'll run natively on Linux. Haven't heard anything about it since, but allowing Wine to use this will greatly increase the speed and compatibility of games.
        The Wine devs already said they aren't interested in doing that.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Yfrwlf View Post
          If one or some developers do create a program for the Windows API and make sure Wine can run it, like how they do now with many games for Mac like Spore for example, as a method of targeting all platforms, so be it, because especially if you bundle Wine WITH the program, it will always be able to run that program. After Linux gets bigger because of the added feature of being able to run some Windows games, that will help developers target Linux APIs directly instead, and they will still want to support true cross-platform APIs and efforts regardless, as targeting the Windows API isn't the best choice for many reasons still.
          So in summary:
          - Wine is (not) an emulator
          - Native Steam for Linux is good for Winelib, because someone like Valve can get game devs to recompile with winelib if it means a few more sales.
          - Winelib is like the JVM - there are plenty of apps (especially in the corporate world) that are bundled with their own Java package.
          - DRM and closed-source stuff sucks, but some people want it on their open platforms

          Personally I'd like to see game devs target VirtualBox as a platform, rather than Windows (ie. you "boot" straight into a game). It'd make PCs more like consoles (or take them back to the days of DOS games), and solve all sorts of compatibility issues. The technology to virtualise the video and audio acceleration for the VM isn't quite there yet though...

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          • #80
            Originally posted by devius View Post
            If all (or mostly) you do is play those kind of games on your computer then you are right in that it's better to just keep running windows.
            I doubt there are many people who just use a computer (or mostly), to play games. I myself use it for multiple functionality. The way I see it, if running Linux loses functionality, then it isn't a replacement for Windows. It really depends on what tasks you do with your PC.

            Lets see my list.

            #1 I browse the web, and there's FireFox. CHECK
            #2 I like to watch videos, and there's VLC. CHECK
            #3 I use my PC as a media center, and there's MythTV. CHECK
            #4 I do type documents, and that's handled with Open Office. Check
            #5 I like to edit photos with Photoshop... I haven't tested that with Wine.
            #6 I do enjoy my PC gaming, the games work right? FAIL

            If you only intended to use linux because of wine then it's obvious you wouldn't be using it much. Wine pretty much sucks. Users who choose linux have a very different and varied set of reasons to do so, but playing the current top selling games isn't one of them. It may be because it's more secure, malware/spyware/virus free, more customizable, etc.
            Gaming is just one aspect of owning a PC. You may not play games, but a lot of people do. Mac OS X is a secure, malware/spyware/virus free OS, but you don't see people going crazy to install it. Hackintosh or not, Mac lacks games as well, and you don't see people rushing out to replace Windows.

            Though, I can guarantee you that people would love to replace Windows with Linux, cause it does have lots of advantages.

            It boots quicker
            Support for more hardware
            Customizable
            Secure
            FREE!
            Compiz, which you have to admit it's awesome.
            Repository
            No need for Anti-Virus

            Yet, a lot like Windows 7, people won't switch because they want their applications working on it. Applications can include games.
            That number (1%) is just what the big guys (MS and Apple) keep saying to try and make it go away, in the hopes that if they repeat a lie many times it will become true. Not that I care about linux having more users. I like the fact that hackers and malware authors are more interested on windows, thank you very much.
            I don't... So you're saying that 1% isn't accurate, but you don't mind not having more Windows users switching, cause they'll ruin your Linux.

            I don't get it.
            The Wine devs already said they aren't interested in doing that.
            What are they doing?

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            • #81
              Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
              #5 I like to edit photos with Photoshop... I haven't tested that with Wine.
              Gimp should do that for you just fine, and natively.

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              • #82
                Originally posted by Svartalf View Post
                Heh... Beat me to it, you did.

                Folks, he's telling you the straight skinny there.

                WINE, the library, is true to it's eponymous acronym.

                WINE, the environment is NOT true to it's name. It is a framework to fake a Windows application out, thinking it's running against Windows. By definition, a virtual environment, and therefore emulation at several differing levels. Virtual machines like with VMWare or VirtualBox are high-performing emulations- but still emulations all the same. You're not native there, though you're close. The same goes for WINE. You're close in many ways, but you're still not native (Some things run faster under it, and others, nowhere near as fast, if at all...)- and you're at the whims of the vendor of your title as they don't officially support WINE (Except for a few notable exceptions like Eve Online...they just don't...not even Blizzard.) and they can apply a fix to some perceived problem and break your usage of the title under WINE- and then not shed a single tear for you. (Witness what happened with WoW and some of their "bot" prevention measures- if it wasn't for the massive uproar that ensued, they'd have written you off, guys...).

                In the end, you're sending a message. You're not interested in Linux gaming- and you're emulating things while doing it.

                I can't believe that the wine myths page doesn't state that. They should if anything post what the differences are based on graphical representation.


                Game -> OS -> Drivers -> Hardware

                Game -> Wine -> Linux -> Drivers -> Hardware

                Game -> VM ( Fake OS -> Fake hardware -> fake drivers) -> OS -> Drivers -> Hardware

                Since the wine Myths page doesn't tell us exactly what is and isn't emulated, we are left in the dark as to what is actually going on. The detail of what it does is limited and rightly so as not many people really want to know exactly what the software does. It's probably written in laymen terms for the average user.

                http://wiki.winehq.org/Debunking_Wine_Myths

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                • #83
                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_machine

                  Just to use wiki as an example of VM.

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
                    Gaming is just one aspect of owning a PC. You may not play games, but a lot of people do. Mac OS X is a secure, malware/spyware/virus free OS, but you don't see people going crazy to install it. Hackintosh or not, Mac lacks games as well, and you don't see people rushing out to replace Windows.
                    Actually I do see it. A few years ago (10 or so) only some designers used macs, and now more and more "mainstream" people are buying them. It has to mean something. I have no idea what the market for games is like on the PC front, but judging by the circa 60% market share of integrated graphics I'd say that leaves about 30% for people that buy hardware for games. People who buy hardware for gaming probably do a lot of gaming, and thus that is a very important part of thei PC usage. I'm guessing that someone with integrated graphics probably doesn't take gaming very seriously, so they are more likely to not being restrained to an OS because of gaming alone. Little by little, a part fo this group of people will begin to find other alternatives due to all the negative things that come with windows.

                    Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
                    I don't... So you're saying that 1% isn't accurate, but you don't mind not having more Windows users switching, cause they'll ruin your Linux.

                    I don't get it.
                    I'm not saying that it would be great to have all the world population on linux, just that that 1% figure that keeps being spread over the years isn't accurate. BTW, I also didn't like the anti-virus running and still having virus and spyware make its way into my PC, so that was the main reason I switched. Since I didn't have time to game anyway it didn't make much of a difference to me. Over the years I found a lot of other advantages to using linux and so it became permanent (i.e. wiped windows of the hard drive).
                    Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
                    What are they doing?
                    Beats me! They keep saying that bugs have been fixed and improvements have been made but for me it's always the same.

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by devius View Post
                      Actually I do see it. A few years ago (10 or so) only some designers used macs, and now more and more "mainstream" people are buying them. It has to mean something.
                      Macs are more popular now, but it's mainly due to the fact that Macs are like a social status. Like the Nike shoes of today.

                      It's certainly much easier to own a Mac today. Applications like FireFox, VLC, and OpenOffice are popular tools that you'll find on both Mac and Windows. So it makes it easier for users to make the transition to other OS's, even Linux.

                      Which is why Wine is so important, because it makes the transition to Linux easier.
                      I have no idea what the market for games is like on the PC front, but judging by the circa 60% market share of integrated graphics I'd say that leaves about 30% for people that buy hardware for games. People who buy hardware for gaming probably do a lot of gaming, and thus that is a very important part of thei PC usage. I'm guessing that someone with integrated graphics probably doesn't take gaming very seriously, so they are more likely to not being restrained to an OS because of gaming alone. Little by little, a part fo this group of people will begin to find other alternatives due to all the negative things that come with windows.
                      You'd be surprised. A lot of game developers don't make games exclusively for PC, and focus mainly on Xbox 360 and PS3. Since these consoles are the lowest common denominator, PC gaming doesn't need much hardware to play games. So long as the graphics chip is from AMD or Nvidia, you'll find that games will run just fine. Even Intel is decent enough to play today's games.

                      Microsoft knew that gaming as a big part of Windows, which is why they created Direct X, years ago. Many gamers had hoped that Steam would make its way over to Linux, cause a lot of people would have made the switch. It would have brought serious gaming on Linux.

                      This is pretty much how the gaming community sees this.

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