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  • #61
    Originally posted by Dragonlord View Post
    Don't have the names in my head anymore as I send those buggers flying out of the window when they didn't work. Also some cases happened with others with games I don't own myself. But as far as I recall it includes AAA titles. Since some time I do not buy anything through steam anymore and it kept me rather sane. At last if it runs or not is then only the problem of the game developer no more a two-fold problem of steam messing up too.
    Thats what I thought, you empty handed with nothing to back up your claims. Please refrain from talking about things you have no clue about or have very little experience with. If you come up with anything to substantiate your theories please educate me.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by GNU/Blind View Post
      Thats what I thought, you empty handed with nothing to back up your claims. Please refrain from talking about things you have no clue about or have very little experience with. If you come up with anything to substantiate your theories please educate me.
      Yeah, the old fan-boy rant. I'm not empty-hand you idiot. But do you really expect me to keep a "non-functional" game around on my machine for eons to come? Important is that it happened and more than once. It happened also more than once to people I know which got pissed at these problems. So I'm not the only one. This alone is enough for me to state that there is a problem (if it happens to more than one person). And I don't go call blame on games if I'm not 100% about the name. I'm coming across a lot of games for various reasons and I tend to keep remembering the names of the really good ones. But I guess in your case name is program you are "GNU restricted-to Blind"

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      • #63
        EDIT: Besides you little smart-ass. What do "you" call as "substantial"? This kind of trolling I've seen a lot. People go around claiming all the time "this is not 'substantial'" or "this is not valid proof" so they can drag on the trolling.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Dragonlord View Post
          EDIT: Besides you little smart-ass. What do "you" call as "substantial"? This kind of trolling I've seen a lot. People go around claiming all the time "this is not 'substantial'" or "this is not valid proof" so they can drag on the trolling.
          Hey buddy, I don't call you names. Why resort to calling me a fanboy and a troll? No need for that, all I'm saying is that the six or seven games I own on steam, none of them are "caged". Here is a list of games and DRM they use on Steam. Here is Valves co-founder talking about DRM and how its bad for business.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Compholio View Post
            Sure, using the colloquial definition of emulation - from a technical standpoint these are very different things.
            Define "technical" standpoint. Dragonlord's telling you things as they are. Not quibbling about semantics (I mention this because the moment you used the term "colloquial" to try to dodge the description Dragonlord pinned on things, you were doing that...).

            The myth item from WINE is not wholly correct. If it's an abstraction layer like they're claiming, it wouldn't need a special program loader (the wine app and the wineserver app...)- it would just simply RUN on Linux directly. If it needs any sort of virtualization, etc. it's still using bits and pieces of emulation in the mix- it's just not emulating hardware like the CPU because it doesn't need to like traditional emulators use- which is why they're trying to avoid having it called an "emulator", not because it's not one. It is, it's just more akin to a Virtual Machine environment than the console, etc. emulators.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by GNU/Blind View Post
              Hey buddy, I don't call you names. Why resort to calling me a fanboy and a troll? No need for that, all I'm saying is that the six or seven games I own on steam, none of them are "caged". Here is a list of games and DRM they use on Steam. Here is Valves co-founder talking about DRM and how its bad for business.
              Unfortunately, Gabe's talking out both sides of his mouth. Their titles still use DRM- just a better implemented one that THEY did and they're not calling it DRM.

              Can you play the game without an internet connection? Not always? Is the title multiplayer? No? Then you're talking about a form of DRM, no matter what the publisher/developer is calling it.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Dragonlord View Post
                Wine is BAD for Linux because it strengthens Windows as the OS. It's an emulator and that's the problem. It's not "native" application and therefore prone to all sorts of problems. Wine is NOT a solution for promoting Linux as a gaming system, it's the exact opposite.
                That it won't help Linux is one theory and I disagree with it. Linux (and others) are the free OSes. If the free OSes become capable of running programs the non-free OSes can run, it makes those non-free OSes less relevant. Linux needs to one up and surpass features of other operating systems, and by running more of the programs the others run, that is being accomplished. Any programs which are made compatible with Linux and other free OSes when they would have normally only been made for the non-free OSes is a win, and any additional programs which users can run on free OSes will allow greater free OS adoption, which means Wine programs. If one or some developers do create a program for the Windows API and make sure Wine can run it, like how they do now with many games for Mac like Spore for example, as a method of targeting all platforms, so be it, because especially if you bundle Wine WITH the program, it will always be able to run that program. After Linux gets bigger because of the added feature of being able to run some Windows games, that will help developers target Linux APIs directly instead, and they will still want to support true cross-platform APIs and efforts regardless, as targeting the Windows API isn't the best choice for many reasons still.

                Quite simply, as long as Microsoft tries to squeeze developers who try to target the Windows APIs, that's reason enough to target APIs which have cross-platform in mind from the getgo, like OpenGL. This is my same argument against Mono, too, as Mono is a copy of .NET and it is controlled by a corporation with a very strong reputation for backstabbing essentially by dangling things which are supposedly open standards in front of everyone with hidden strings attached. So while .NET CAN be used to some degree to target Windows and Linux (and Mac?), it's probably not an ideal choice with cross-platform compatibility and agnosticism in mind. Just the fact you have to test .NET programs on both Windows and Linux to make sure they're compatible is enough of a warning flag to me, .NET just has too many hooks into proprietary Windows crap AFAIK, but I'm no expert. Regardless, the ability to run .NET programs on Linux is also a one-up on Windows, just so long Microsoft doesn't pull an ace out of it's hat with some attached strings, one of which is .NET being patented. Someone nuke the USPTO please, thanks.

                And it's not an emulator by definition of emulator as others have said, it uses libraries, it's like you installed /Windows/System32 onto your system basically. You can basically compare Wine with OpenGL, it's an implementation of an API that does not require CPU translation. That's my understanding any way.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Dragonlord View Post
                  By the way, the last paragraph of yours is a total contradiction. If you consider them "being ok in your book" for that crap then you are brain-sick, sorry.
                  I'd like to add that I'm pretty sick of seeing you throw pejoratives out at people, especially when you can't even be bothered to understand what you just read before slinging them out. He was clearly contrasting Valve and Ubisoft's protection measures.

                  Clearly, you have a hate-on for Steam. That's fine. No one *likes* DRM. But your typical choice for a modern AAA title goes something like this:
                  1- Disc Check
                  2- DRM
                  3- Pirate

                  Number 3 should be crossed off right out of the gate for obvious reasons.

                  Some of us prefer #1, and implementations of #2 vary wildly. Both are a hassle, but they can both be circumvented in all their forms. At that point, everyone just chooses the protection measure they see as the least hassle out of the box. Throw in Steam's weekend deals and it's social gaming infrastructure on top of their very permissive DRM, and you've got one hell of a winner in my book. When DRM-free digital delivery is an option, I take it every time. But other than StarDock, the classics on GoG, and some Indie titles, no one is going that route.

                  Some people see it differently, and prefer to exercise other options. That's fine. It's nothing to recommend a mental health professional over. We all mostly just want to play some games and not be hassled.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Svartalf View Post
                    Unfortunately, Gabe's talking out both sides of his mouth. Their titles still use DRM- just a better implemented one that THEY did and they're not calling it DRM.

                    Can you play the game without an internet connection? Not always? Is the title multiplayer? No? Then you're talking about a form of DRM, no matter what the publisher/developer is calling it.
                    I have had my steam client in offline mode for weeks now, yet I can still play any of the games I own. I mainly play Vegas 2, online mostly and it runs happily with out Steam being in online mode. The only games I know of that require steam to be online to play online is Valves titles and serious sam HD. Not that there aren't more, I just haven't bought enough to find out. It is a pretty safe guess that if a game is primarily released on steam and has multiplayer capabilities, the multiplayer side will require steam to be in online mode. Steams DRM is great, perfect.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Yfrwlf View Post
                      And it's not an emulator by definition of emulator as others have said, it uses libraries, it's like you installed /Windows/System32 onto your system basically. You can basically compare Wine with OpenGL, it's an implementation of an API that does not require CPU translation. That's my understanding any way.
                      Some overhead of function calls is probably to be expected though, depending on how the compiler decides to optimize. I suppose if you were really nuts, could tweak all OpenGL functions to be inlined into Wine DX... (seriously, don't do this; it makes your Wine dependent on your libGL meaning you can't switch between open and closed drivers)

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Straximus View Post
                        We all mostly just want to play some games and not be hassled.
                        I apparently didn't understand the goal of that short list, but pirating is the only option you listed which achieves that for many who like to be in complete control of software, but you mentioned DRM-free too.

                        Any way, it's this simple: companies, come up with a way to be nice to others and also make money. How?
                        1. In places where there are copyright laws, and you want to "use" them even though I personally disagree with any of it, you should be offering assurances via EULA or license or whatever notification or contract you prefer that stipulate you will remove the DRM after a set time, or open source the software after a set time, whatever it takes to assure your restrictions will not be a problem for those who invest in your software.
                        2. Please someone, since it's not going to be me (don't have the legal knowledge), like Steam or any other mass organization of commercial software developers, push bounty systems in combination with point (1). Get sign ups and commitments to donate/pay first as you release your ideas and updates on your development progress or whatnot, release a demo when you're close to finishing, and then take the payments and release the software as open source or whatnot.

                        I very much believe that all software companies must move towards option 2 in the long run, as DRM is not an option, and sharing information will always be the norm, so if you're going to share an experience which takes a lot of effort, and you want to try the paid development route, some kind of bounty system is your only option, and that means you're going to need a good method of establishing trust while ensuring financial support at the same time. That is the future of software development in my opinion, aside from open source development which already heavily relies on bounty systems (aka paid development support) along with non-development support.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Yfrwlf View Post
                          I apparently didn't understand the goal of that short list, but pirating is the only option you listed which achieves that for many who like to be in complete control of software, but you mentioned DRM-free too.
                          As I stated those are the "typical choice(s) for a modern AAA title(s)". I mentioned DRM-free in a different context - the only context it currently exists: older titles and indie titles.

                          I don't disagree with your ideas. But I'm also not going to avoid or pirate blockbuster titles until they are adopted.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Straximus View Post
                            I'd like to add that I'm pretty sick of seeing you throw pejoratives out at people, especially when you can't even be bothered to understand what you just read before slinging them out. He was clearly contrasting Valve and Ubisoft's protection measures.

                            Clearly, you have a hate-on for Steam. That's fine. No one *likes* DRM. But your typical choice for a modern AAA title goes something like this:
                            1- Disc Check
                            2- DRM
                            3- Pirate

                            Number 3 should be crossed off right out of the gate for obvious reasons.

                            Some of us prefer #1, and implementations of #2 vary wildly. Both are a hassle, but they can both be circumvented in all their forms. At that point, everyone just chooses the protection measure they see as the least hassle out of the box. Throw in Steam's weekend deals and it's social gaming infrastructure on top of their very permissive DRM, and you've got one hell of a winner in my book. When DRM-free digital delivery is an option, I take it every time. But other than StarDock, the classics on GoG, and some Indie titles, no one is going that route.

                            Some people see it differently, and prefer to exercise other options. That's fine. It's nothing to recommend a mental health professional over. We all mostly just want to play some games and not be hassled.
                            The list is actually incorrect. It should be:
                            1- Disc Check + angry customer + pirates
                            2- DRM + angry customers + pirates
                            3- happy customers + pirates

                            All options include pirates not only the last one But with the last one you have happy and paying customers while with the others you have (more or less) angry customers. I see only 3 as the only solution in the future because pirates exist in all 3 solutions and therefore should not be used as the reason to drop one or the other.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Straximus View Post
                              As I stated those are the "typical choice(s) for a modern AAA title(s)". I mentioned DRM-free in a different context - the only context it currently exists: older titles and indie titles.

                              I don't disagree with your ideas. But I'm also not going to avoid or pirate blockbuster titles until they are adopted.
                              You mean until other business models are adopted? Okay, though piracy certainly helps push for the adoption of those other models along with irate customers at the DRM-laden models, lol. Don't get me wrong, while I strongly support sharing because I think it's the right thing to do and not something I'm going to fragment my morals on (if you're this poor, then you can share this amount of experience/information, etc), I do donate to paid development models sometimes especially for pro-Linux causes (have paid for / donated to some indy Linux games, and may purchase some of these games through Steam that are coming if I like them and am comfy enough with the restrictions, but ultimately I feel strongly that the software industry will have to turn into a commission-based system.

                              #1: "Here's what I would like to see in a program."
                              #2: "Oh, you'd like to see that too? So would I!"
                              #1: "Lets get together then and either
                              1. Create it.
                              2. Pay for someone else to create it if we aren't developers ourselves.
                              It's basically one of the several open source business models and I feel it's the one that needs to stand in for catering to those wanting new things, especially entertainment, but of course it can be for any type of program.

                              Governments need to get themselves together and get together with other governments and pay for a group of developers to make the open source programs they need. Educational institutions (though they will be obsolete soon in the face of the digital age) should do the same, and any and all other organizations and individuals who have a need for software, period. Doing so will save trillions of dollars all over the world.

                              I'm not surprised that Steam has become a bazaar for software, but we need more organizations like it which will instead start pushing open source business models. Ultimately those will be the ones that are successful once they gather enough steam (harhar) in comparison due to competing on the basis of freedom. No doubt the bigger more glamorous softwares will be more abusive than the smaller ones just as it is now with indy titles being DRM-less more often than the mega-titles as you pointed out, but competition will eventually shut that kind of unfriendly behavior up especially as they feel the heat from open source.

                              Ideally in the future, businesses and individuals will be commissioned and it'll be a matter of grabbing a few open source blocks of code here and there, coating it in their own icing, and releasing it for a small fee, while the program itself will be awesome, but similar awesome programs will exist. It's the open source snowball effect. (though snow forming a bigger and bigger ball as it rolls down a hill is a complete myth any way)

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Dragonlord View Post
                                The list is actually incorrect. It should be:
                                1- Disc Check + angry customer + pirates
                                2- DRM + angry customers + pirates
                                3- happy customers + pirates
                                No, my list is perfectly accurate. Mine is a list of options the customer has when choosing to acquire a triple A title. Yours is a list of options the publisher has when choosing how to distribute. If I had the luxury of choosing from your list, I would always choose option #3. But I don't get to choose how publishers distribute their titles. Publishers do. And they choose the first two options, leaving me to choose between them.

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