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Valve Is Not Commenting On Steam, Source Engine For Linux

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  • Originally posted by Dragonlord View Post
    @deanjo:
    Please stop being a dick here and trying to save your arguments with off-topic stuff.
    How is it off topic? Just pointing out the flaw in your logic.

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    • Originally posted by Dragonlord View Post
      These problems mentioned are related to these games. There exists sort of hacks to get around this but that's exactly the point: you have to "hack" the game to get it working. That's not LAN play that's LAN raping... players...
      I don't understand the problem. If you start Steam, you click the "Save Password" button and then you quit Steam. If you restart Steam without Internet Connection, you would be ask to play in offline mode. If you accept that, you can still start all SourceEngine based games and use the LAN game browser to find games on your LAN. There were no dirty hacks or something else, except you have different networks without correct routing-tables.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by mibo View Post
        For the game publisher. They should really sit together and think if they want to annoy PC gamers with all the restrictions any longer. For a game console I can buy a game and just play it - without internet connection, not to care if the official master server is still online - it just works.
        Not for much longer... Not to mention that DRM, firmware, etc. had a hand in the PS3 meltdown a while back on "Phat" PS3's (Yes, I got zapped...grrr...).

        It's getting to the point that I'm not sure I want to spend all that money on things like a PS3 and the titles I've got if they're going to do things like that. I'd almost be better off with something based off of the Cortex-A9 with two or four cores, coupled with an AMD GPU- or at least something like the new D510 series Atoms done the same way. Coupled with Android, MeeGo, etc. that would be the makings of a new breed of console system if done right. (And there's a move to do that very thing right now... )

        Comment


        • Originally posted by dopehouse View Post
          I don't understand the problem. If you start Steam, you click the "Save Password" button and then you quit Steam. If you restart Steam without Internet Connection, you would be ask to play in offline mode. If you accept that, you can still start all SourceEngine based games and use the LAN game browser to find games on your LAN. There were no dirty hacks or something else, except you have different networks without correct routing-tables.
          Again... on paper maybe but NOT in reality. Steam NEVER let me (or any other person I know off with the same problems) play offline. It ALWAYS screams for a fucking internet connection because it wants to "phone home".

          EDIT: By the way. Saving a password has NOTHING to do with having to stay online to play. It's just a convenience to not having to enter the password each time a connection is made.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Dragonlord View Post
            Again... on paper maybe but NOT in reality. Steam NEVER let me (or any other person I know off with the same problems) play offline. It ALWAYS screams for a fucking internet connection because it wants to "phone home".

            EDIT: By the way. Saving a password has NOTHING to do with having to stay online to play. It's just a convenience to not having to enter the password each time a connection is made.
            You don't have to stay online to play.

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            • Found this interesting article about steam,linux and opengl in general.

              http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...2361495,00.asp

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              • Originally posted by Dragonix View Post
                You don't have to stay online to play.
                Even if this would be true, what use is this if you can't play offline to begin with?

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                • STEAM still needs that initial connection though. After that you can log off if you like. It depends on the individual game too, but for the most part you do need that initial phone call to be made.

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                  • Some gamers prefer same-screen gaming, or gaming physically together, thus "LAN parties" or split-screen, example: party games.

                    Other gamers are fine with multiplayer gaming over the Internet if they can't or don't want to be together, which can be on special/exclusive servers, on open servers, or direct.

                    Yes, DRM can impede or hamper some of the above preferences. DRM means less freedom, and some gamers may prefer to have those freedoms.

                    Copy protection can also cause problems too.

                    Regardless, I hope Steam comes to Linux, because it will make Linux more popular as a platform and MAYBE a lot of big problems with Linux will then be solved.

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                    • Originally posted by Dragonlord View Post
                      Don't worry, this will change again. What it takes is Indies showing that DRM-less games give more sales than DRM-ladden ones... as well as showing why Linux is the superior gaming platform... both for playing and developing :P
                      ...like this problem. Linux is not the superior gaming platform in some ways, but is in other ways. I hope these get addressed.

                      Linux lacks, as far as gaming:

                      1) A GUI for terminating games which lock up. Switching VTs is not a solution for those who don't know the command line, i.e. normal computer users. System Monitor popping up as just another window may not be good enough if the program won't minimize. The Windows solution is to overlay the controls over the entire screen, over whatever is there regardless of if it's full screen or not. But perhaps it's just an issue with control-alt-delete not reaching the system and instead the game absorbing the keystroke, not sure.

                      2) Standardized installation/removal system. Installers don't provide a way for removal many times, and don't integrate with the program manager to allow users to remove (or install) them the same way they do other packages. Packages themselves are not standardized, but could be. Every Linux project could push for standard packages of their programs, or the package system could be told where to get the special package from, there's just a lot of solutions for every issue here but few seem to care because most of the developers are stuck in the "oh they can just compile it" mindset, not giving a damn about binaries or normal computer users who can't compile. I feel this is the largest issue right now as I don't want a proprietary "appliance", I want standards, and all Linux users would appreciate that freedom.

                      3) Monolithic kernel making any graphics glitches fatal. Yes, the process of the way Linux is debugged and how tight things are may help with bugs, but it also means graphics issues means that I have to hit the reset button when a game has graphics issues instead of just the game itself crashing or the kernel killing it. Whatever happened to Linux being uncrashable? Where are the failsafe mechanisms to prevent it, to restart a hosed graphics driver, or whatever it takes to deal with this kind of crashing? Better graphics drivers is one thing but Linux should be more bulletproof than to rely on that.

                      4) Audio problems. Galore. But oh, Pulse Audio is the BEST EVAR. Maybe it is the whole Linux audio system though, but regardless, there's a lot of problems here. Things are slowly getting a bit better though at least.

                      5) Lag, with everything. Audio lag, mouse lag, you name it, Linux has always had this problem. Some of you may be used to it by now, but try running a Windows game sometime to remind yourself of the tight responsiveness that Linux is missing. I don't need to tell anyone how horrible this is for gaming. Luckily, I think this may be improving as well, but it's still noticeable in many games. In any case, Linux audio is still really lacking in basic things. In another year, I think many of these will be solved though, hopefully.

                      6) Gaming while multitasking. You can't. Disk I/O kills everything else. Try installing a program while gaming sometime. Linux is very bad at multitasking, or doing it in a way that desktop users need, i.e. not completely freezing up everything else and dedicating every CPU cycle to an I/O process.

                      Currently, Windows offers solutions to all these issues, while Linux still has a ways to go. This is very bad. While Windows is not perfect with some of these things, in general it's in a lot better shape than Linux is.

                      Linux has (over Windows), as far as gaming:

                      1) Fast performance due to low overhead. Linux is capable of it any way. While Windows does a good job at swapping out a lot of services and other things that don't need to be running while in a full-screen game, Linux doesn't need to run as many services to begin with, and in general Windows has always been more bloated. Linux needs to improve in this area though, as Windows is getting leaner in response to competition from it.

                      2) Free, unless you buy support or pay for development, which means if you do want to pay for, say, a close source game or any other type of game, you have more money to do so.

                      That's all I can think of for now that's really gaming-specific, other than all the reasons for using Linux because of all the neat features it does have which make it an attractive desktop and server.

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                      • Oops, went from "Linux lacks" to "Linux has", but you get the point. :P

                        BTW the can't edit after one minute restriction is annoying though understandable I guess...

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                        • Originally posted by Yfrwlf View Post
                          1) A GUI for terminating games which lock up.
                          Every WM has such a thing.

                          2) Standardized installation/removal system.
                          Windows is not standarized at all. There are tons of different installers. Many don't even register themselves properly in the places designated for them. So Linux is fully on par in that regard.

                          3) Monolithic kernel making any graphics glitches fatal.
                          Oh, you mean this is any better? I agree that hard-locks suck but Windows is as prone to such hard-locks as is Linux. If you don't want such hard-locks in that quantity use Haiku-OS or any other BeOS derivate.

                          4) Audio problems. Galore.
                          Never had much of troubles with that. Depends also a lot on the design of the game engine. Granted the various sound systems are not the best but that's not the main problem... it's the closed-source thinking of audio board manufacturers.

                          5) Lag, with everything. Audio lag, mouse lag, you name it,
                          Lag? Where? Why should audio or the mouse lag? Never had any problems in games under Linux with lag in any way expect rendering speed under Wine but that's an emulator and does not count.

                          6) Gaming while multitasking. You can't. Disk I/O kills everything else.
                          Under Windows this is not possible, but under Linux I don't see a problem. I do it often in fact, especially while deving. For example running the game while doing hacking and file manipulation at the same time to locate bugs. Nightmare under Windows, easy to do under Linux so I don't get this point. Besides disk IO stalling is in general a problem with the game design. Disk IO is always considered slow in game deving.

                          Currently, Windows offers solutions to all these issues, while Linux still has a ways to go.
                          Sorry but that's major league bullshit there. Windows is in no way "much better" in these issues or does not have them. That's simply fanboy talk to claim so.

                          1) Fast performance due to low overhead.
                          And before you claimed it "lags"? Wait to contradict yourself.

                          2) Free, unless you buy support or pay for development,
                          No objection there.

                          EDIT: Removed the last part for fairness reasons :P

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Yfrwlf View Post

                            1) A GUI for terminating games which lock up. Switching VTs is not a solution for those who don't know the command line, i.e. normal computer users. System Monitor popping up as just another window may not be good enough if the program won't minimize. The Windows solution is to overlay the controls over the entire screen, over whatever is there regardless of if it's full screen or not. But perhaps it's just an issue with control-alt-delete not reaching the system and instead the game absorbing the keystroke, not sure.
                            I would like that so much. Most of the time I dread running games fullscreen because of it. Switching VT can be clunky at times, and if you have something like fglrx, can outright kill your session.

                            2) Standardized installation/removal system. Installers don't provide a way for removal many times, and don't integrate with the program manager to allow users to remove (or install) them the same way they do other packages. Packages themselves are not standardized, but could be. Every Linux project could push for standard packages of their programs, or the package system could be told where to get the special package from, there's just a lot of solutions for every issue here but few seem to care because most of the developers are stuck in the "oh they can just compile it" mindset, not giving a damn about binaries or normal computer users who can't compile. I feel this is the largest issue right now as I don't want a proprietary "appliance", I want standards, and all Linux users would appreciate that freedom.
                            There are already many package systems out there, but yeah, no one seems to agree on what to use (or even bother using them). I frankly don't care what is used in the end, as long as it's an easy and transparent process.

                            3) Monolithic kernel making any graphics glitches fatal. Yes, the process of the way Linux is debugged and how tight things are may help with bugs, but it also means graphics issues means that I have to hit the reset button when a game has graphics issues instead of just the game itself crashing or the kernel killing it. Whatever happened to Linux being uncrashable? Where are the failsafe mechanisms to prevent it, to restart a hosed graphics driver, or whatever it takes to deal with this kind of crashing? Better graphics drivers is one thing but Linux should be more bulletproof than to rely on that.
                            Need to get back on this latter, but would be interesting to see what others think or what workarounds are available.
                            4) Audio problems. Galore. But oh, Pulse Audio is the BEST EVAR. Maybe it is the whole Linux audio system though, but regardless, there's a lot of problems here. Things are slowly getting a bit better though at least.
                            PA isn't that bad anymore. The problem is when you use programs whose developers for one reason or another refuse to provide proper support for PA. Most of the time the solution given is to "remove PA", which on most modern distro means screwing up your sound system if you're not careful.
                            5) Lag, with everything. Audio lag, mouse lag, you name it, Linux has always had this problem. Some of you may be used to it by now, but try running a Windows game sometime to remind yourself of the tight responsiveness that Linux is missing. I don't need to tell anyone how horrible this is for gaming. Luckily, I think this may be improving as well, but it's still noticeable in many games. In any case, Linux audio is still really lacking in basic things. In another year, I think many of these will be solved though, hopefully.
                            I honestly have not experienced this. I constantly switch between Windows and Linux desktops and I can "feel" no lag.

                            6) Gaming while multitasking. You can't. Disk I/O kills everything else. Try installing a program while gaming sometime. Linux is very bad at multitasking, or doing it in a way that desktop users need, i.e. not completely freezing up everything else and dedicating every CPU cycle to an I/O process.
                            I can play a session of Nexuiz, while I encode a 3 hour movie in the background, play some music, compile some source code, and have a browser open (that memory hog of Firefox) downloading some stuff. No problem at all. Yes, I loose some performance, put that's normal given the tasks I'm running simultaneously.
                            I think here you specifically mean gaming with WINE. Yeah, with WINE you can't do anything else aside WINE. Installing a game slows everything else considerably as well. Everyone knows that WINE isn't a solution, so you can't fault Linux for it.

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                            • Having had to use Windows today (heh, after a very long time), I tried to look for the interactivity, since it's been mentioned around here so often. Under heavy load I noticed exactly one difference to linux - the mouse continued to move fluidly.

                              On the other hand, this was of absolutely no use, since the windows stopped redrawing and responding to events.

                              That is, a tie.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by deanjo View Post
                                And there are a lot of Lan parties held in rural areas now isn't there?
                                Yes, there are. Back before we had broadband out here, I used a Linux PC to share a 28.8 modem with my friends at our LAN parties. When you've got no fast Internet and no public places to hang out, what do you do? LAN party.

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