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Good News, id Tech 5 Is Likely Coming To Linux

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  • #91
    i wonder why resurrect such an old topic while there are newer topics about this specific subject?

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    • #92
      Originally posted by RealNC View Post
      Isn't the release date for Rage set for October 4, 2011? That's not next year, that's 50 days from now :-)
      That's because this is a case of someone performing necromancy on a really old thread.

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      • #93
        Originally posted by sirdilznik View Post
        That's because this is a case of someone performing necromancy on a really old thread.
        I am the culprit...

        Didn't see the dates...

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        • #94
          Yeah about those drivers: Carmack said that the texture lookup was the most important thing and that Intel Sandy Bitch GPUs were more favorable due to driver optimalisation than nVidia. The problem is not calculation power, but latency. In order to meet 16ms (for 60fps), AMD had released a patch specificaly for the megatexture stuff so that it could update on a per-pixel basis. Now that's where the driver problem comes from on Linux: FireGL being the best driver for Rage, but not so great on Linux.

          The real pain today is shaders and Rage doesn't have a lot of them. That's because Carmack is more about artwork. He said in a Doom3 interview that he realy disliked hacks like shaders for effects and simply wanted things that are dynamic, such as real lightning in Doom3, on-the-fly texturing in Rage and on-the-fly geometry for upcomming id Tech 6.

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          • #95
            soon he will create the voxel + ray-tracing technology for id tech6 and he will dominate the world graphics once and for all!

            Mark my words!

            i wonder if sometime he would allow us the privilege to use megatexture from etqw and use it with voxel rendering...

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            • #96
              Originally posted by Setlec View Post
              soon he will create the voxel + ray-tracing technology for id tech6 and he will dominate the world graphics once and for all!

              Mark my words!

              i wonder if sometime he would allow us the privilege to use megatexture from etqw and use it with voxel rendering...
              The megatexture from ETQW isn't effective in anything other than heightmaps, so it's not likely the best thing to use with voxel based systems.

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              • #97
                If you want something like a mega texture for geometry than look no further than sparse voxel octrees. Carmack said that for skinning those octrees are a problem, but I gues he hasn't heared of animated sparse voxel octrees yet.

                He also said that he will only be using ray casting (not tracing) for that geometry, but he also said that he could get good 720p ray tracing at good framerates with CUDA and ASVO (animated sparce voxel octrees) are immensely good for ray tracing (for example; if x rays hit block then block has x level of geometry detail so only y levels down need to be looked up).

                If someone could make an SVOERPT (sparce voxel octree enegry redistribution path tracing) state tracker for Gallium3D (which, if enough knowledge, is way more easy to do than shit like OpenGL, because it's so simple) then it would bring us a lot closer to unlimited detail with uber rendering. The secret sauce is in the low level acces.

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by Setlec View Post
                  soon he will create the voxel + ray-tracing technology for id tech6 and he will dominate the world graphics once and for all!

                  Mark my words!

                  i wonder if sometime he would allow us the privilege to use megatexture from etqw and use it with voxel rendering...
                  Damn strait he will. But he's saying that is about 7 years away.

                  Originally posted by V!NCENT View Post
                  If you want something like a mega texture for geometry than look no further than sparse voxel octrees. Carmack said that for skinning those octrees are a problem, but I gues he hasn't heared of animated sparse voxel octrees yet.

                  He also said that he will only be using ray casting (not tracing) for that geometry, but he also said that he could get good 720p ray tracing at good framerates with CUDA and ASVO (animated sparce voxel octrees) are immensely good for ray tracing (for example; if x rays hit block then block has x level of geometry detail so only y levels down need to be looked up).

                  If someone could make an SVOERPT (sparce voxel octree enegry redistribution path tracing) state tracker for Gallium3D (which, if enough knowledge, is way more easy to do than shit like OpenGL, because it's so simple) then it would bring us a lot closer to unlimited detail with uber rendering. The secret sauce is in the low level acces.
                  You've obviously seen that "unlimited detail" engine that's been boasting about their special voxel engine. I'm a bit iffy about that engine because there are limitations to detail when volume of data is concerned. Notice in one of the youtube video's "meet the crew" he has hired a "data packer". I bet this is for the very reason that they are simply running out of space to store the large volumes of dynamic voxel sets. I call them dynamic voxel sets because it looks like euclideon is synthesising the creation of new voxels inside smaller blocks of voxels. Much like an octree but with more code to create/synthesise data than just load more data.

                  Notice how JC mentions that no matter the detail, the end result is the inspired content. If the game is dull and boring, graphics only prove a shallow wow factor before the fun wears off. I think this is the sole reason for the success of games like fallout new vegas. The game engine is 5 years old but the game itself has oodles of awesome content that made the game what it is, regardless of it's obsolete 3D engine. Same with minecraft, not exactly the best graphics, but the inspired gameplay gets people hooked for months.

                  Speaking of which, what type of storage system is a game like minecraft using? It looks like a voxel octree... It would be good to load up one of those minecraft maps in a voxel editor to play around with the data sets.

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                  • #99
                    The next id tech is only something that Carmack is theorizing about. The hardware that would be needed to support it does not exist. And it's not a sure bet even that it will ever exist.

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                    • The next id tech is only something that Carmack is theorizing about. The hardware that would be needed to support it does not exist. And it's not a sure bet even that it will ever exist. He's only guessing at what direction graphics hardware will move in the future.

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                      • Originally posted by RealNC View Post
                        The next id tech is only something that Carmack is theorizing about. The hardware that would be needed to support it does not exist. And it's not a sure bet even that it will ever exist. He's only guessing at what direction graphics hardware will move in the future.
                        I would argue that JC theories are 80% correct. He's pretty spot on or on the mark so to speak. Not only smart but has excellent foresight.

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                        • Originally posted by b15hop View Post
                          I'm a bit iffy about that engine because there are limitations to detail when volume of data is concerned. Notice in one of the youtube video's "meet the crew" he has hired a "data packer". I bet this is for the very reason that they are simply running out of space to store the large volumes of dynamic voxel sets. I call them dynamic voxel sets because it looks like euclideon is synthesising the creation of new voxels inside smaller blocks of voxels. Much like an octree but with more code to create/synthesise data than just load more data.
                          "Sir, this computer has a... TEN... MEGAbyte harddrive! You'll never fill that one in your lifetime!"
                          Storage capacity grows every year. But let's look at it from another perspective. A triangle requires at least three polygons. We're approaching (tesselation) detail of more than a triangle per pixel (Crysis 2 useless PC Tesselation patch). At this point, storing models with that kind of (non-tesselated) polygon detail requires much more than a single voxel in an octree. You can actually get that voxel data down to one bit on avarage in a sparse voxel octree. That means that voxel data suddenly become much more compact to store.

                          Notice how JC mentions that no matter the detail, the end result is the inspired content. If the game is dull and boring, graphics only prove a shallow wow factor before the fun wears off. I think this is the sole reason for the success of games like fallout new vegas. The game engine is 5 years old but the game itself has oodles of awesome content that made the game what it is, regardless of it's obsolete 3D engine. Same with minecraft, not exactly the best graphics, but the inspired gameplay gets people hooked for months.
                          I just finished Ultimate Doom (all episodes). To me gameplay matters more than graphics, by far. But what I want is a total experience out of game. Doom gives me a whole better experience than Crysis, because it's much more believable.

                          Comparing Doom's graphics to Crysis, I find Doom a much better emersive experience. That's because Doom doesn't look like a washed out tattoo, spreaded as a wallpaper over paper-model shape with a custom shiny wax job on top.

                          When I play Doom, I think of this: http://v1.studenten.net/graphics/con...5-23-storm.jpg
                          When I play Crysis I think of this: http://media.vam.ac.uk/media/thira/c...838_jpg_ds.jpg

                          It's so much cooler seeing I blast a monster's shoulder of in Doom, than seeing some model drop like a doll with a washed out stain of ketchup in Crysis.

                          So far what voxels can do that traingle can't. Now the lightning...
                          When I play Doom I think of this: http://www.cornwalls.co.uk/photos/da...ithian-bw1.jpg
                          When I play Doom with an OpenGL engine upgrade I think of this: http://www.destination360.com/north-...state-fair.jpg

                          Speaking of which, what type of storage system is a game like minecraft using? It looks like a voxel octree... It would be good to load up one of those minecraft maps in a voxel editor to play around with the data sets.
                          I don't know...

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                          • So I want voxel data for gameplay (believeable destruction) and graphics (no flat textures please).

                            And I want ray tracing for the the atmosphere.

                            That's the answer to "We can do x effect with y rendering too! Who needs ray tracing!?"

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                            • Originally posted by V!NCENT View Post
                              "Sir, this computer has a... TEN... MEGAbyte harddrive! You'll never fill that one in your lifetime!"
                              Storage capacity grows every year. But let's look at it from another perspective. A triangle requires at least three polygons. We're approaching (tesselation) detail of more than a triangle per pixel (Crysis 2 useless PC Tesselation patch). At this point, storing models with that kind of (non-tesselated) polygon detail requires much more than a single voxel in an octree. You can actually get that voxel data down to one bit on avarage in a sparse voxel octree. That means that voxel data suddenly become much more compact to store.


                              I just finished Ultimate Doom (all episodes). To me gameplay matters more than graphics, by far. But what I want is a total experience out of game. Doom gives me a whole better experience than Crysis, because it's much more believable.

                              Comparing Doom's graphics to Crysis, I find Doom a much better emersive experience. That's because Doom doesn't look like a washed out tattoo, spreaded as a wallpaper over paper-model shape with a custom shiny wax job on top.

                              When I play Doom, I think of this: http://v1.studenten.net/graphics/con...5-23-storm.jpg
                              When I play Crysis I think of this: http://media.vam.ac.uk/media/thira/c...838_jpg_ds.jpg

                              It's so much cooler seeing I blast a monster's shoulder of in Doom, than seeing some model drop like a doll with a washed out stain of ketchup in Crysis.

                              So far what voxels can do that traingle can't. Now the lightning...
                              When I play Doom I think of this: http://www.cornwalls.co.uk/photos/da...ithian-bw1.jpg
                              When I play Doom with an OpenGL engine upgrade I think of this: http://www.destination360.com/north-...state-fair.jpg


                              I don't know...
                              I LoL'd loudly with the comment about Doom being a B grade horror while Crysis feels like Lego island. =)

                              Apparently Crysis uses an octree engine to store it's map data. That being said, I've not played much of the game, because just like you, I assumed it has poor story or gameplay. Though I have played crysis in multiplayer and it's just a huge camp fest... I absolutely loved the half life games because of the amazing immersion, though in saying that, after playing fallout 3 and fallout new vegas, I'm starting to not enjoy the unreality of the game. Fallout immersed me more simply because you just be yourself. But just like JC said, uninspired content can break even the best things. The addon packs to Fallout New Vegas are a bit of fail. Brought the story from A grade down to B grade in a shot. Compared to HL2 where the mission packs just made the game so much better.

                              Regarding hard drive space... Well... I get the feeling hard drives are reaching their limits. I don't think we'll ever see 1 exa byte hard drives. New technology will most surely have to surpass current disk drive technology. SSD's are promising but still have a long way to go. JC said himself that we have to work with the now and not pretend something better is magically going to fix all these current issues. (that being hdd space) JC is partly lucky too, even back in the days of quake 2, he was actively using new gen hardware long before release. That's a good thing, because when the game ships, it works and is usually fast.

                              My gripe is on par with JC that consoles are reigning supreme. I've changed my entire disposition of the likes of STEAM simply because it's things like that, which are keeping us PC gamers in the financial loop. I hated steam once. I still feel it puts the user in limbo though, because all those games revolve around that one piece of software. Which makes me happy that RAGE won't be steam dependant even though it will be sold through steam. So JC did a good thing there. Though I'm not happy about his change in Linux support. Especially since his technology shouldn't need the latest driver support to begin with. That won't stop me from playing the game though.

                              On a bright note, you may have convinced me to play Doom3 (in Linux). Since I've finished both Doom 1 and 2 all those years ago...

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by b15hop View Post
                                I LoL'd loudly with the comment about Doom being a B grade horror while Crysis feels like Lego island. =)
                                What?! No!!!!! Crysis like Lego? Hell no! (BTW that's a Thunderbird island!)

                                No I meant visual representation. The Storm comic has amazing painted visuals. Seriously, google it You know it's not photorealisticly real, but it's better looking than a photo of something. What I meant to illustrate with that Thunderburd Island was that Crysis looked like plastic toy environment where it wan't to be real but fails. It's like trying realy hard to not spark my imagination and tell me right in my face that it's very purpose is to not be classic.

                                Doom is comes more close to Lego for me than Crysis. Lego is holy (Technic Lego) and I wouldn't even dare to compare Crysis to it.

                                BTW that cloudy image versus that fair/christmas-tree/merry-go-round was supposed to illustrate atmosphere. DoomGL looks like shit. Lightning in any texture filtering game looks like shit. I'd rather get a contrast ratio difference than lightspots because in my head, the world doesn't look like a fscking christmass tree.

                                I absolutely loved the half life games because of the amazing immersion, though in saying that, after playing fallout 3 and fallout new vegas, I'm starting to not enjoy the unreality of the game.
                                Half-Life 2 looks a lot better than any game produced after it because the atmosphere is so great. It has that atmospheric feel to it like everything is happening like as if it was a normal day, but you're fantasy kicks in like "OMG we're opressed. Time to kick some ass!". I mean the artwork just feels right.

                                Regarding hard drive space... Well... I get the feeling hard drives are reaching their limits.
                                Not by a long shot. We still have holographic stuff, atom based stuff. Limits until the sales are going down. If people are saying something's impossible, than what they are realy saying is "I don't know how to do it".

                                I'm not happy about his change in Linux support. Especially since his technology shouldn't need the latest driver support to begin with.
                                Them you haven't seen the Quakecon 2011 Carmack Keynote speech video over at YouTube. The problem with the latest drivers is no what is being rendered, but by cutting the latency with streamed textures as agressively as Rage does. Currently PC drivers abstract everything and to this day still mostly abstract all memory management, which HW only manages to overcome by brute processing power.

                                On a bright note, you may have convinced me to play Doom3 (in Linux). Since I've finished both Doom 1 and 2 all those years ago...
                                Dunno if you ever watched the movie Alien, but get prepared to shit yourself with Doom3 It's the perfect match of Japanese horror keeping you scared with American horror triggering that and making you shoot out of your chair. In the beginning you're like "OK yawn... light got out no big deal", but further down, just a single spontanious decompression of a gaspipe make you jump out of your chair and it's like "WOAH! SHI-... oh just a pipe...phew".

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