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  • #71
    Originally posted by duby229 View Post
    oppression of any kind is not a freedom. Being free from oppression is a freedom. (and theres that word free again being used in it's proper context.)
    Stop oppressing my right to oppress people! Isn't that a Monty Python skit or something?

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    • #72
      Originally posted by Kivada View Post
      it was a legal analogy
      Watch out, you'll be roped into explaining how analogies work if you aren't careful...

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      • #73
        Originally posted by smitty3268 View Post
        Stop oppressing my right to oppress people! Isn't that a Monty Python skit or something?
        Nice catch. But you've just missed the point that individual freedom stops where others' start.

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        • #74
          Originally posted by dee. View Post
          Watch out, you'll be roped into explaining how analogies work if you aren't careful...
          it wasnt an analogy. racism is not a freedom, it's a prejudice.

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          • #75
            Originally posted by duby229 View Post
            it wasnt an analogy. racism is not a freedom, it's a prejudice.
            And you can only be free of racism by limiting other people's freedom to be racist towards you.

            How hard is it to understand that not everyone can be free to do "whatever they want"? As soon as there's the first conflict of interest, either party of the conflict will have to give up on their freedom. This applies to practically all freedoms. This is why all freedoms come with limitations.

            The GPL provides freedom by limiting the freedom to take away freedom. That's why it's called free software.

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            • #76
              Originally posted by dee. View Post
              And you can only be free of racism by limiting other people's freedom to be racist towards you.

              How hard is it to understand that not everyone can be free to do "whatever they want"? As soon as there's the first conflict of interest, either party of the conflict will have to give up on their freedom. This applies to practically all freedoms. This is why all freedoms come with limitations.

              The GPL provides freedom by limiting the freedom to take away freedom. That's why it's called free software.
              nobody has the freedom to be racist. that's not a freedom.

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              • #77
                Originally posted by duby229 View Post
                nobody has the freedom to be racist. that's not a freedom.
                my right to freedom of speech does not end where your feelings begin

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                • #78
                  Originally posted by peppercats View Post
                  my right to freedom of speech does not end where your feelings begin
                  Absolutely it does. In the US, I have legal rights that allow me to defend myself in the court of law. There are multiple courses of action that can be taken depending on how your racism effects me.

                  Laws do in fact exist to protect people from racism. Protection from racism is covered by legislation and case law. That's part of the freedom that we americans have.
                  Last edited by duby229; 08-24-2013, 05:16 PM.

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                  • #79
                    Originally posted by duby229 View Post
                    nobody has the freedom to be racist. that's not a freedom.
                    So, freedom to do "things duby229 agrees with" counts as freedom, and freedom to do "things duby229 disagrees with" doesn't count as freedom. Gotcha.

                    How many times do I have to spell it out for you? Freedom doesn't come with built-in morality. If it did, it wouldn't be freedom, it would be enforced morality. Hell, I think I've said this exact sentence to you once already and you still don't seem to get it.

                    Not to mention that some people, in some situations, in fact do have the freedom to be racist. Many people are allowed to say very racist opinions without anyone stopping them or punishing them in any way. They are free to express racist opinions, because they're not doing it in a way that is considered illegal by the local law - or they may be living in a jurisdiction where there are no laws against racist speech.

                    Freedom doesn't mean just "freedom to do nice things", and freedom isn't some disney-cartoon lawful-good concept that's always inherently a good thing. For example, we sometimes have to restrain mentally ill people to keep them from hurting themselves or others. We're restricting their freedom in a very concrete and immediate way, but it's often better than the alternative. Same with violent criminals, psychopaths, rapists and the like - we restrict their freedom also.

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                    • #80
                      Originally posted by dee. View Post
                      So, freedom to do "things duby229 agrees with" counts as freedom, and freedom to do "things duby229 disagrees with" doesn't count as freedom. Gotcha.

                      How many times do I have to spell it out for you? Freedom doesn't come with built-in morality. If it did, it wouldn't be freedom, it would be enforced morality. Hell, I think I've said this exact sentence to you once already and you still don't seem to get it.

                      Not to mention that some people, in some situations, in fact do have the freedom to be racist. Many people are allowed to say very racist opinions without anyone stopping them or punishing them in any way. They are free to express racist opinions, because they're not doing it in a way that is considered illegal by the local law - or they may be living in a jurisdiction where there are no laws against racist speech.

                      Freedom doesn't mean just "freedom to do nice things", and freedom isn't some disney-cartoon lawful-good concept that's always inherently a good thing. For example, we sometimes have to restrain mentally ill people to keep them from hurting themselves or others. We're restricting their freedom in a very concrete and immediate way, but it's often better than the alternative. Same with violent criminals, psychopaths, rapists and the like - we restrict their freedom also.
                      Mentally ill people, psychopaths, rapists and the like do not have the freedom to hurt other people. That's not a freedom. Rape, murder, mugging, etc are not freedoms. You are not free to do those things. If you live in a country where laws don't protect you from those things then you are not free.
                      Last edited by duby229; 08-24-2013, 05:35 PM.

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