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Linus Torvalds Calls For More Linux Kernel Patches

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  • #16
    Yeah, first of all, this is getting derailed into really awful territory. Regardless of what your opinion on Sarah Sharp, calling her names because she happens to be female is not cool. I've already seen a couple of tech sites write of this incident with a subtext of "see, this is what happens when we let icky girls near our kernel!" This is just plain awful behaviour and it perpetuates the image of Linux users as antisocial nerds whose brains explode at the sight of a woman.

    Linus states his opinion bluntly and directly, and that's cool. That's good. But Sarah also has a right to express her opinion - bluntly and directly, if she so chooses. The funny thing is, when Linus is being blunt and direct, people praise him for it (as do I), but when Sarah Sharp is being blunt and direct about her opinion, these certain people call her a "bitch" or whatever. Double standard much?

    The internet, computers, kernels, coding - none of these are things that require testicles. There are women who are better at writing code than 99% of the guys posting here. And as some of the comments even in this thread show, sexism is still an issue even among Linux coders, and pretending that the problem doesn't exist doesn't make it go away.

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    • #17
      What is a neutral discussion?

      Originally posted by dee. View Post
      , and pretending that the problem doesn't exist doesn't make it go away.
      We have to identify the problem on her side in the first place.
      I don't have a problem with her being a girl and expressing her mindset openly (like Linus does).
      My problem with her is that she brings in gender policies with her statements.

      You may not see it openly, but from the first post on, she appears to be a do-gooder and moralist, convinced of her superiority.
      The slight trend to address the readers as "guys" and herself as the "good girl" is just provoking.

      In her attempt to make things appear more professional by "banning" the direct and harsh language she proved herself to be unprofessional in bringing in the gender question in the first place.

      It's easy to blame the developers for it (they're mostly men, so it's a gender-discrimination), but in fact, there is no need for a specific gender in the LKML in the first place.

      For me, a neutral discussion on a mailing list has to satisfy one condition: The reader should not be able to identify an author's gender without looking at the mail-header/name. It's that simple.

      Concerning Sarah, she doesn't satisfy this condition in any way. She could've been smarter.
      Last edited by frign; 07-18-2013, 06:15 PM.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by frign View Post
        We have to identify the problem on her side in the first place.
        I don't have a problem with her being a girl and expressing her mindset openly (like Linus does).
        My problem with her is that she brings in gender policies with her statements.
        Example? What are these gender policies? I read the links you posted earlier, and they seemed to basically amount to "some guys rape women, we need to make them stop doing that". What's so wrong with that? How does it have anything to do with her as a kernel developer?

        You may not see it openly, but from the first post on, she appears to be a do-gooder and moralist, convinced of her superiority.
        The slight trend to address the readers as "guys" and herself as the "good girl" is just provoking.
        Inference is not equal to implication.

        In her attempt to make things appear more professional by "banning" the direct and harsh language she proved herself to be unprofessional in bringing in the gender question in the first place.
        Show me where she has brought in "the gender question" with regards to the kernel development. Also, what is "the gender question" anyway?

        It's easy to blame the developers for it (they're mostly men, so it's a gender-discrimination), but in fact, there is no need for a specific gender in the LKML in the first place.

        For me, a neutral discussion on a mailing list has to satisfy one condition: The reader should not be able to identify an author's gender without looking at the mail-header/name. It's that simple.

        Concerning Sarah, she doesn't satisfy this condition in any way. She could've been smarter.
        Show me where Sarah has asked to be treated differently because of her gender.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Ramiliez View Post
          My favorite
          Thanks! That one just made my day

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          • #20
            Originally posted by frign View Post
            I agree with you on the point of not differentiating gender, religion and etc., but:
            If you read her blog, you would know that she herself promotes gender policies with clear tendency for non-neutrality. For example:

            Hacking the Gender Gap
            Linux Kernel Internships for Women
            Preventing the Violence Against Women

            It would be perfectly fine if she just had given her statement, but on the wave of public attention, she highlights herself for being one of few female Kernel developers and actually gives good reasons for the attacks on her, trying to force her views on all of us.

            I'm obsessed this discussion is so unilateral and predetermined.
            I'm not interested enough in this topic to read all the links and fully educate myself, so it's possible that you have a point and she is starting a gender war here.

            But ultimately, attacking her gender because she said you were going to attack her gender seems like a really poor response to me. (And promoting opportunities for women is a lot different than attacking men - which would be the equivalent of what i think this is turning into).

            If you have a valid, non-gender specific point - and i think that we do - then we should make that. Going on about how women should go back to the kitchens is just kind of proving her point, IMO. Even if i do find those jokes to be funny.
            Last edited by smitty3268; 07-18-2013, 06:43 PM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by smitty3268 View Post
              I don't think that really had anything to do with it.

              I disagree with her point, and don't think this is going anywhere, but it's certainly something i've heard from many men as well who linus pisses off and in particular i bet there could be legal issues at play.

              But attacking someone based on their gender or religion, etc. seems wrong to me.
              You'd have an argument if the entire reason she was popular wasn't entirely because of her gender.
              Linus cusses out men every day, but they never reach news sites because that's the way linus is.
              One single female gets upset and everything instantly goes to news sites.

              And, since she's talking about professionalism,
              Why was she discussing illegal drug activity on the kernel developer mailing list?
              But, but, the light side has brownies. Pot brownies that will make
              everyone feel sleepy and peaceful and possibly hungry. For more pot
              brownies...

              Sarah Sharp

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by smitty3268 View Post
                I'm not interested enough in this topic to read all the links and fully educate myself, so it's possible that you have a point and she is starting a gender war here.

                But ultimately, attacking her gender because she said you were going to attack her gender seems like a really poor response to me. (And promoting opportunities for women is a lot different than attacking men - which would be the equivalent of what i think this is turning into).

                If you have a valid, non-gender specific point - and i think that we do - then we should make that. Going on about how women should go back to the kitchens is just kind of proving her point, IMO. Even if i do find those jokes to be funny.
                To make sure, I'm obviously not attacking a gender and I think the other guy wasn't either - I know perfectly sane women exist because I personally know them, so the gender is fine, trust me. This particular person is, however behaving in a way that is making the woman gender look very bad, in a way that is provoking the "get back to the kitchen" response. To repeat

                Originally posted by frign View Post
                The reader should not be able to identify an author's gender without looking at the mail-header/name.
                This is a very valid point. There is absolutely no reason in bringing gender discussion to a field that has absolutely nothing to do with gender.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by M1kkko View Post
                  This is a very valid point. There is absolutely no reason in bringing gender discussion to a field that has absolutely nothing to do with gender.
                  I agree, i'm just not sure she did. Did she say anything about how we needed to be polite because she was a woman?

                  AFAICT, she said it wasn't professional to be rude like linus was, and now a bunch of people are attacking her saying women need to be tougher. It just seems like she wasn't the one who brought gender into the discussion at all.

                  But like i said, i haven't read all the stuff going on, so i could be wrong about that. I'm sure various news articles and so on are, but that's because they are trying to create a controversy so they can make money on page views. I don't think you can blame Sarah about what some stupid news site says when trying to create a controversy, unless she actively fanned the flames to make that the controversy, and i haven't seen evidence of that to date.


                  Anyway, carry on. I won't respond anymore in this topic because it's probably not going to do any good for anyone, especially me. I just wanted to make sure my points got out there, because i think there are going to be a lot more people with the different viewpoint.
                  Last edited by smitty3268; 07-18-2013, 07:12 PM.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by peppercats View Post
                    You'd have an argument if the entire reason she was popular wasn't entirely because of her gender.
                    Interesting, care to back up that claim?

                    Linus cusses out men every day, but they never reach news sites because that's the way linus is.
                    Really? I think you either have selective memory or you're not reading the same news sites I am. Every time Linus raises voice to *anyone*, geek sites report it. Linus can't fart without there being a news report of it somewhere.

                    One single female gets upset and everything instantly goes to news sites.
                    Her gender has nothing to do with anything. Feel free to disagree with her, or argue against her points. But do so without whining about her gender.

                    And, since she's talking about professionalism,
                    Why was she discussing illegal drug activity on the kernel developer mailing list?
                    What.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by M1kkko View Post
                      To make sure, I'm obviously not attacking a gender and I think the other guy wasn't either - I know perfectly sane women exist because I personally know them, so the gender is fine, trust me. This particular person is, however behaving in a way that is making the woman gender look very bad, in a way that is provoking the "get back to the kitchen" response. To repeat
                      Funny that. When a male person (eg. bo$$) says stupid shit here on Phoronix, do you ever go tell him "you're making the male gender look bad?" No? Then why, when a female says something you (and me, btw) disagree with, you instantly say she "makes women look bad"?

                      See, that's your problem right there. You're treating men and women differently, despite claiming that you want them to be treated the same.

                      This is a very valid point. There is absolutely no reason in bringing gender discussion to a field that has absolutely nothing to do with gender.
                      Really?

                      Originally posted by Sarah Sharp
                      Did I mention minorities here at all? Nope. My only comment was that I
                      wasn't going to be a "nice girl" anymore, which is a comment about my
                      personality, not about the discussion at hand.

                      *No one* deserves to be yelled at IN ALL CAPS in email, or publicly
                      ridiculed. It doesn't matter if they are a minority or not.
                      Seems to me like she's doing all she can to not bring gender into the discussion. Still waiting for anyone to point out to me where Sarah is asking to be treated differently because of her gender.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by smitty3268 View Post
                        AFAICT, she said it wasn't professional to be rude like linus was, and now a bunch of people are attacking her saying women need to be tougher. It just seems like she wasn't the one who brought gender into the discussion at all.
                        The hell with political correctness and "professionalism" (whatever that supposed to mean in the context of e-mail sent by engineers). What is important and what counts is the end result -- good, well maintained software in an environment with a very diverse cultural backgrounds for all people involved.

                        For some people a direct response is just presenting the things for what they are, and for other people this could be viewed as rude and thoughtless bashing.

                        I don't remember exactly during which talk it was, but Linus basically told a story of a developer that wanted to implement some new feature in the kernel. So he did send an e-mail to Linus asking him what he thinks about it. He didn't like it, but was polite about it. Effect was, that the devel in question didn't pick up the "no" cues and spent few months developing the feature (not telling anyone that he was doing it). So he sends the patches to lkml and Linus obviously shoots them down in a straight, blunt manner, as they do stuff he doesn't want to see. Effect? Two weeks later a friend of the developer tells Linus that the guy is suicidal, with a heavy depression.

                        So, is it really worth "being polite" and "professional" if the opposite has a 100% chance of getting your message through?

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by dee. View Post
                          Interesting, care to back up that claim?



                          Really? I think you either have selective memory or you're not reading the same news sites I am. Every time Linus raises voice to *anyone*, geek sites report it. Linus can't fart without there being a news report of it somewhere.



                          Her gender has nothing to do with anything. Feel free to disagree with her, or argue against her points. But do so without whining about her gender.



                          What.
                          If her gender had nothing to do with it, then we wouldn't be discussing this right now.
                          Just curious, how often do you think Linus cusses people out? Once a year?
                          The only reason this is a big thing at all is because she's female, you're in denial if you think differently.

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                          • #28
                            Linus reminds me of George Carlin, rude and funny.

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                            • #29
                              Complain about his manner all you want, but he's the one that keeps the kernel sane. If others were left to their own devices, without him, you probably wouldn't even have unloadable kernel modules anymore for example. Breaking behaviour that existing programs and services depend on would also be a regular occurrence.

                              It's not threats of physical violence either, she needs to get a grip. It was a joke about Greg KH's physical size.

                              Linus Torvalds is actually a very nice man despite the way he tells people off when he's unhappy (It's mostly jovial though... I don't think I'd be offended by it). I spent considerable time reading the kernel mailing list (not so much anymore), and I have seen him interact with many people. In a personal example, I can't believe the time he took explaining things to me, when I was trying to help solve a problem I was having with a driver/piece of hardware. (I felt foolish that I didn't know enough to understand it all but I appreciated the Hell out of it)

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by synaptix View Post
                                Her little statement has stalled kernel developement at the moment, since everyone is now too busy concentrating on Mr. Torvalds behavior.
                                There's a little common sense that's needed here, if you don't want the public to judge or react adversely to something controversial, then that information shouldn't be put out in the public space.

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